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Thread: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

  1. #61
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    HjnRe: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico:b US

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Times are bad in Mexico, but the latest attacks are acts of war. I am not against bombing runs on the homes of cartel members for starters. The way I see it, if the Mexican government can't do the job it needs to do, then we should do it for them.

    Article is here.
    My mother's brother lives in El Paso and he's having an effing party in Juarez tomorrow. My mother and father just informed me about this and they are attending. She said that she was aware of the increased violence. WTF are they thinking?? I feel sick.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    I would assume we do not have the intelligence, nor the ability to keep tabs on what and where everyone and everything is at once.

    Starting in the jungles and looking at just coca.. we will leave heroin production out of this.. there are going to be thousands of super remote locations buried deep inside the jungles, well hidden, and spread out across numerous countries, countries with different tolerance levels to our presence (Bolivia is extremely cold to our Coca eradication ideas).

    Deep in the mountain jungles in remote valleys and steep hillsides there are coca farms, there are also coca processing plants in the same geographical proximity that are very mobile, and very easy to pick up, move or reestablish. All you need is a pit in the ground lined with plastic to spread the leaves across, and a few chemicals to process it.

    The logistics of pulling this off are mind boggling, we have been there trying to do exactly what you claim, we have been engaged in a long term eradication campaign in S. America to no avail, it is a logistical nightmare, and the production facilities are super mobile, and the crop is extremely widespread and culturally ingrained (thousands of years ingrained).

    Even if we had permission to enter these countries and decimate their fields.. and yes their economy (like it or not it is their economy), the cost in manpower resources and money would be huge to accomplish this, and even IF we got all of it, it would be back again the following year awaiting our dedication to rinse and repeat. We have been attempting to do this for a long time, to no avail.

    It has been estimated that there are 100,00 members/soldiers in the carious Mexican Cartels , so umm you were saying about manpower? Sure we have technology, but in a guerrilla war? conventional armies and our technology are ineffective in a war with this army, we cannot hope to identify all the players, and it is in their interest to remain hidden. They are in the cities of Mexico.. we may get away with drone rocket strikes in the rural areas of Pakistan, but you really think this will go over well in the middle of downtown mexico city or Nuevo Laredo? You want concerted strikes on their activity centers, their activity centers are on the streets of Mexico.. I highly doubt Mexico will sit by and allow us to come in and risk that kind of Collateral damage.

    I could continue.. but to do what you propose and even dream of having an effect it would take an IMMENSE amount of dedication and resources, we would have to invade, occupy, and engage in guerrilla war in numerous countries on the scale of our current presence in Afghanistan.

    Never mind that the next year there will be a new crop and (provided we killed off every aspiring Mexican foot soldier, MS13 in Guatemala, cartels in Columbia, ect, ect.) there will be some group that will step up somewhere to fill the void.. there is too much money to be had, and too much poverty in the world for people to not risk getting killed for such lucrative rewards.

    Quite frankly.. the cost of eradicating the problem is too high, we as a nation will never ever want to pony up and pay the full cost (it is bad enough that ~1 trillion dollars has been dedicated to this war already) in manpower, resources, money, and self policing of our country to eradicate the problem,

    We don't need to, there is a much simpler, much cheaper way to go about it, a way that does not relinquish control to nefarious elements and the black market which is fueling the Mexican violence, but we do not have the stomach for that either and many see it as giving up, or as caving in to a drugged fueled nation, when in reality it is just picking our battle wisely, and starving out and eradicating the criminal problem so that we can then focus on dealing with the drug problem.

    edit to add link to cartel number estimates:

    EXCLUSIVE: 100,000 foot soldiers in Mexican cartels - Washington Times
    That's all a nice little mealy mouthed way of saying we should just legalize drugs because "we can't" fight the cartels and that is something neither I nor most Americans will accept. If it takes a presence equal to that of Afghanistan, then it should be our next priority if the killings continue.

    I think you have idea that the cartels have some disciplined army at their disposal...that they have some will to fight a protracted war with us if it actually comes to open warfare.

    One thing we have never done is demoralize them, terrorize them, and exterminate them. I don't care if we do it with bombs, I don't care if we do it with swat teams, I don't care if we do it with little assasinations here and there. All that I care is that we do it. There are so many options at our disposal that I cannot fathom rolling over on our backs and allowing their trade to continue unimpeded by simply legalizing their trade.

    If we do legalize their trade, what do you think their response is going to be? Do you think they are gonna just let little shops open and cut into their profit? Do you think they won't attempt to intimidate and extort and control the growing industry that results? I mean, you seem to think there's this vast network of 100k soldiers working for them, all sitting in little holes just ready to pounce...what makes you think they wont be used to strong arm businesses?

    No, we attack ruthlessly and at every opportunity. Make it a mark of misfortune for anyone to be tied to them. You can cry legalize it all you want but in the end these thugs understand violence and that's how they should be responded to.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    You are under the impression that legalizing it would allow their trade to continue.. the reason to legalize it is to eliminate their trade.

    The only people whose trade would continue would be a few farmers that will be growing the coca/opium to feed their family regardless. There already is a legitimized LEGAL opium production setup in place, it is a legitimate source of income for many, and a legitimate source for prescription drugs across the world, there is no need for criminals or cartels in the production chain..

    You are stuck thinking that somehow criminals would still be in charge.. no the point of legalizing drugs is to get them out of the loop, to put them out of business, their presence is intolerable and unacceptable, our motives are the same our approaches different.

    A comparison: Are mafias and gangs still in charge of Alcohol production, importation, distribution?? How long did they stay in business after prohibition was repealed? this is the exact same thing.. legalize and only let legitimate businesses participate. No more money for cartels, no more money for gangs, no more criminals selling to kids in our schools, no more kids in our schools being enticed into gangs by the allure of drug money.. I could go on, but it would start getting beyond the scope of this thread.

    Drugs are bad, I want drug abuse to go away, we have a drug problem in this country, I want to treat it, we cannot treat it when we are also creating and fighting a massive unnecessary criminal problem alongside our drug problem.
    Last edited by marduc; 03-19-10 at 07:54 PM.
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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Whenever black market supply goes down, street prices and trafficker profits go up. That reinforces all the conditions that lead to violence like this. Unless we can make the plant species totally extinct, attempts to remove the supply will continue to cause more problems than they solve. The best way to fight the WoD is to focus on lowering demand through education and deglamorization, but not incarceration because drug abuse is a medical problem, not criminal.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Except it doesn't really work like that in practice.

    If you traffic cocaine (powder or crack) in relatively small amounts, there is a mandatory sentence of 5, 10, or 20 years in federal prison depending on amount. That's pretty ****ing harsh. Despite that, prosecutions for both powder and crack trafficking have risen steadily over the past 15 years.

    We already have insanely high penalties for these things. They don't work.



    I think you're mistaken about how cocaine sentencing actually works. The disparity that you initially referred to only deals with drug traffickers, not casual users. In fact, the reforms that you're theoretically backing would actually have the effect of reducing punishment on low level users like you're referring to.



    Saying it doesn't make it so. I just don't get why you think this. We already have insanely harsh drug laws in this country. Why would making them harsher do anything positive?
    Notice how I am trying to suggest focusing on the USERS of the drugs, not the traffickers. In fact I would suggest not busting the traffickers at all, and only bust the users. It would make it easier to find the users as well.

    I also dont believe that low level users are being punished in the US. How much time did Yasmine Bleeth do for cocaine use? or most people who get caught with an 8 ball. (personal use).
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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    How many decades have we been at war with various cartels already? Kill one leader, or take out one cartel, and 5 wanna be's go to war to replace the one that got killed. It is war with a hydra, cut off one head and you get multiple replacements - and survival of the fittest means they just get bigger and badder. So long as there are billions of dollars of black market proceeds to kill or be killed for, then the cartels and the violence will continue, regardless of how ferociously we play whack-a-mole.
    You just told us how to defeat the cartels. The way Herculous killed Hydra was after cutting a head off he'd burn the neck so nothing would grow. What we need to do is kill the cartel members and their families so that people won't join any cartel unless they want for them and their family members to be killed

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Instead of invading Mexico, we should just end the Federal war on drug users.
    This isn't going to keep the drug lords in check. We need to take extreme measures against these drug-dealing sons of bitches.

    For each American that dies we need to kill 5 gang members and three members of the drug lord's family.

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    Re: HjnRe: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico:b US

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    My mother's brother lives in El Paso and he's having an effing party in Juarez tomorrow. My mother and father just informed me about this and they are attending. She said that she was aware of the increased violence. WTF are they thinking?? I feel sick.
    You should try and stop them any way you can.

    It is very dangerous there.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    It has been suggested here to lighten penalties on casual drug users.

    I say charge them with the murders of the drug cartels and build special jails for them.

    They are why the cartels are willing to kill innocent people to keep their business going.

    Do you people realize, for example, the head of the Sinaloa Cartel in Culiacan lives in a nice neighborhood next to many innocnet people that may or may not know what he does.

    You are willing to bomb his house and kill everybody around him.

    We are not talking about Afghanistan here where the people are living in a desert.

    These are nice neighborhoods. Doctors, lawyers and professionals.

    How many innocent people are you willing to kill to get to the head of the cartel which will accomplish absolutely nothing.

    Here in Mexico there are so many small groups killing people now, just killing the head of the Sinaloa Cartel won't get anything done.

    How do you identify them when they never show their faces, always under hoods??????? Who are they and where do they live? Nobody knows. Always using stolen vehicles so no trace to anybody.

    Tell me how we find and kill them.

    What is being done about gangs in your area. Same thing. Should you bomb their houses and kill everybody around them? I bet you wouldn't just in case there is a gang member living next to you that you don't know about, or somebody that is identified as a gang member whether they are or not. Same bomb, same death.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Instead of invading Mexico, we should just end the Federal war on drug users.
    This isn't going to keep the drug lords in check
    Why not? Ending alcohol prohibition did. Not having prohibition on other drugs continues to. (i.e. how many caffeine drug lords have you heard of?) What makes you think this would be any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    It has been suggested here to lighten penalties on casual drug users.

    I say charge them with the murders of the drug cartels and build special jails for them.
    Well in that case, I say charge the prohibitionists with murder because they're the ones who implemented the draconian policies which led to the rise of these drug cartels. Not really, but just saying that cuts both ways.

    Seriously though. If there's one lesson to be learned from the WoD failure, it's the fact that harsh penalties don't affect the rate of drug use, they only make the drug problem worse than it already is. That's because prohibition mischaracterizes drug use as a criminal problem instead of a medical problem. Like using a screwdriver to turn a bolt, prohibition is simply the wrong tool for the job.

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