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Thread: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Times are bad in Mexico, but the latest attacks are acts of war. I am not against bombing runs on the homes of cartel members for starters. The way I see it, if the Mexican government can't do the job it needs to do, then we should do it for them.

    Article is here.
    Why would we bomb Mexico because of the cartels? The Mexican government does take it seriously, as they have military personnel all along the border. The cartels are powerful though, they can't be shut down in the snap of a finger.

    I'm assuming American and Mexican intelligence agencies are working together on this, and that is probably the best way to get to the root of this.

    I wouldn't call it an act of war because the Mexican government is not behind it.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    That's a very "we can't" attitude.
    We have been at this for 40 years.. what have we to show for it?

    You have your approach, which is to mollify them by legalizing their trade and I have mine which is to destroy every nest of them we find and make their trade unprofitable.
    You fail to realize "my" approach is to guarantee their trade is unprofitable, it is not an approach to "mollify" it is an approach to starve them, and any further generations of cockroaches out of existence by eliminating the black market.

    I am not saying to bomb and stop. I am saying that we should respond with equal savagery and make joining a cartel synonymous with having a permanent bullseye on your back and the backs of everyone who has contact with you. Continual and relentless attacks on every known center of their activity.
    this is already the case, they fight and claw their way to the top fully aware that there is a HUGE bullseye on their back, and that they are almost guaranteed to get killed - not just by a bullseye we place on them, but an even more real threat of getting offed by their rivals, or even by those that are closest to them. A fresh coat of paint on the bullseye changes nothing.

    And no, we would not be attacking "countries". However, we could be working with them to attack specific targets.
    Because countries that are already pissed at us for aerial herbicide campaigns and ground eradication are just going to let us waltz in and further decimate their Nation by dropping napalm wantonly.. sure makes sense

    Mexico, though, is obviously incapable or unwilling to deal with their problem and as they are directly on our border, I don't think we should brook any disagreement from them when we go after northern border operations. Period.
    Actually Mexico is willing to deal with their problem, and are doing their damndest to do so with the resources they have and billions of US aide.. unfortunately the opposition receives significantly MORE in US aide.
    Last edited by marduc; 03-19-10 at 05:19 PM.
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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Because countries that are already pissed at us for aerial pesticide campaigns and ground eradication are just going to let us waltz in and further decimate their Nation by dropping napalm wantonly.. sure makes sense

    Hyperbole much? No, it would not "decimate their Nations". Targeted attacks against opiate growing plantations...simple as that.

    Actually Mexico is willing to deal with their problem, and are doing their damndest to do so with the resources they have and billions of US aide.. unfortunately the opposition receives significantly MORE in US aide.
    Source and quote or it didn't happen.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    It went from
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman
    We have to be able to find the plantations where they grow the plants to make the cocaine and heroine. Why aren't we napalming the hell out of those sites?
    to
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Targeted attacks against opiate growing plantations...simple as that.
    move goalposts much??

    Coca eradication in the Andes has been a dismal failure, the crops are nestled in valleys and mountain slopes that aerial campaigns cannot reach, there has been staunch opposition, and huge swaths of jungle -IE their national land, or Nation (pardon the poor word choice of Nation.. but their land is their nation)- have been poisoned. You really think these countries are happy with the US coming and spraying pesticides all over the place and devastating their land??

    Look into Evo Morales and how he came into power, and get an idea of how popular this eradication is - if it is done by "choice" in these countries - it is done by heavy handed choice. Ask yourself.. would you be complacent, or do you think we as a nation would be happy if a third party came and started spraying our forests down with pesticides?? why would this be different in another country?

    And you want to drop Napalm, and act incredulous when I suggest a country would take offense to that idea. wow.. really wow.



    Source and quote or it didn't happen.
    I am not playing your source it game when I cannot even tell what it is you want sourced, or why what is general knowledge even needs to get sourced. What I am supposed to give you info that the US is sending billions of aide and resources to Mexico to fight the drug war? or am I supposed to source the fact that Mexico is fighting the cartels in their country? Or am I supposed to be sourcing that billions upon billions of US dollars are going to drug cartels?
    Last edited by marduc; 03-19-10 at 05:57 PM.
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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    It went from

    to


    move goalposts much??
    Uh, to most native english speakers...they say the exact same thing. Plantations growing the plants that are turned into the drugs.

    I don't know what goal posts you think were moved and to where but I am seriously starting to doubt the sincerity of your arguments now.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    I am not playing your source it game when I cannot even tell what it is you want sourced, or why what is general knowledge even needs to get sourced.
    No of course you wouldn't give sources. That's rather hard to do when you are making **** up and spewing conspiracy theories.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Uh, to most native english speakers...they say the exact same thing. Plantations growing the plants that are turned into the drugs.

    I don't know what goal posts you think were moved and to where but I am seriously starting to doubt the sincerity of your arguments now.
    You went from coca and opium, to just opium. that is narrowing the goalposts a tad IMO.

    Likely an omission on your part, just as I used poor word choice with "Nation" and also as what I think caused your "source it" statement I did not put quotes around "aide".

    So I suppose we are both guilty of omissions and/or posting errors that changed the perspective of what we said

    I don't know what to tell you if you doubt the sincerity of my arguments, you don't have to, although they are quite sincere.
    Last edited by marduc; 03-19-10 at 06:25 PM.
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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No of course you wouldn't give sources. That's rather hard to do when you are making **** up and spewing conspiracy theories.
    dude I do not know what you want sourced.
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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    You went from coca and opium, to just opium. that is narrowing the goalposts a tad IMO.

    Likely an omission on your part, just as I used poor word choice with "Nation" and also as what I think caused your "source it" statement I did not put quotes around "aide".

    So I suppose we are both guilty of omissions and/or posting errors that changed the perspective of what we said

    I don't know what to tell you if you doubt the sincerity of my arguments, you don't have to, although they are quite sincere.
    You are correct...it was an ommission of naming the pair when I mean both coca and opium.

    Let's start there again. I don't see how targeting the entire operation, not just the fields, can be a bad thing. I don't mean pesticide the plants...I mean scorch the entire plantation...fields, buildings, manpower. Everything. And hit several at once.

    These are crime organizations, not militaries. We have the advantage of discipline, manpower, and technology. Why we aren't making concerted, simultaneous attacks on their activity centers is beyond my comprehension.

    Of course, do this in addition to policy changes like you mention, which I already stated.

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    Re: 'Hit teams' attack US consular staff, families in Mexico: US

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    You are correct...it was an ommission of naming the pair when I mean both coca and opium.

    Let's start there again. I don't see how targeting the entire operation, not just the fields, can be a bad thing. I don't mean pesticide the plants...I mean scorch the entire plantation...fields, buildings, manpower. Everything. And hit several at once.

    These are crime organizations, not militaries. We have the advantage of discipline, manpower, and technology. Why we aren't making concerted, simultaneous attacks on their activity centers is beyond my comprehension.

    Of course, do this in addition to policy changes like you mention, which I already stated.
    I would assume we do not have the intelligence, nor the ability to keep tabs on what and where everyone and everything is at once.

    Starting in the jungles and looking at just coca.. we will leave heroin production out of this.. there are going to be thousands of super remote locations buried deep inside the jungles, well hidden, and spread out across numerous countries, countries with different tolerance levels to our presence (Bolivia is extremely cold to our Coca eradication ideas).

    Deep in the mountain jungles in remote valleys and steep hillsides there are coca farms, there are also coca processing plants in the same geographical proximity that are very mobile, and very easy to pick up, move or reestablish. All you need is a pit in the ground lined with plastic to spread the leaves across, and a few chemicals to process it.

    The logistics of pulling this off are mind boggling, we have been there trying to do exactly what you claim, we have been engaged in a long term eradication campaign in S. America to no avail, it is a logistical nightmare, and the production facilities are super mobile, and the crop is extremely widespread and culturally ingrained (thousands of years ingrained).

    Even if we had permission to enter these countries and decimate their fields.. and yes their economy (like it or not it is their economy), the cost in manpower resources and money would be huge to accomplish this, and even IF we got all of it, it would be back again the following year awaiting our dedication to rinse and repeat. We have been attempting to do this for a long time, to no avail.

    It has been estimated that there are 100,00 members/soldiers in the carious Mexican Cartels , so umm you were saying about manpower? Sure we have technology, but in a guerrilla war? conventional armies and our technology are ineffective in a war with this army, we cannot hope to identify all the players, and it is in their interest to remain hidden. They are in the cities of Mexico.. we may get away with drone rocket strikes in the rural areas of Pakistan, but you really think this will go over well in the middle of downtown mexico city or Nuevo Laredo? You want concerted strikes on their activity centers, their activity centers are on the streets of Mexico.. I highly doubt Mexico will sit by and allow us to come in and risk that kind of Collateral damage.

    I could continue.. but to do what you propose and even dream of having an effect it would take an IMMENSE amount of dedication and resources, we would have to invade, occupy, and engage in guerrilla war in numerous countries on the scale of our current presence in Afghanistan.

    Never mind that the next year there will be a new crop and (provided we killed off every aspiring Mexican foot soldier, MS13 in Guatemala, cartels in Columbia, ect, ect.) there will be some group that will step up somewhere to fill the void.. there is too much money to be had, and too much poverty in the world for people to not risk getting killed for such lucrative rewards.

    Quite frankly.. the cost of eradicating the problem is too high, we as a nation will never ever want to pony up and pay the full cost (it is bad enough that ~1 trillion dollars has been dedicated to this war already) in manpower, resources, money, and self policing of our country to eradicate the problem,

    We don't need to, there is a much simpler, much cheaper way to go about it, a way that does not relinquish control to nefarious elements and the black market which is fueling the Mexican violence, but we do not have the stomach for that either and many see it as giving up, or as caving in to a drugged fueled nation, when in reality it is just picking our battle wisely, and starving out and eradicating the criminal problem so that we can then focus on dealing with the drug problem.

    edit to add link to cartel number estimates:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...rs-in-cartels/
    Last edited by marduc; 03-19-10 at 07:29 PM.
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