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Thread: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

  1. #151
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not all-encomapssing, but a generic refernce.
    Genereic reference is permissible.
    Perhaps it's permissible to you and other people who believe in a higher power. I'm just saying I can see the other side of the argument.

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Exactly.

    However, my arguments tend to be on the side of the "remove it" people because I have yet to meet someone who supports it staying that would still be OK with it if it was changed to "Under Allah" (even though Allah is the same God as the Judeo-christian God) or "Under Vishnu" (Because "under God" is non-inclusive of Vishnu, but "under Vishnu still fails to establish a state religion).
    Here would be my general view on this...

    To my understanding Vishnu is a very specific god, not a generalized word, of a very specific religion. This is not the same as little g "god".

    Allah, again, is specific to a particular religion even though theologically is the same "god". I would feel the same about it being "Under Allah" as I would if it was "Under Jesus Christ our Lord". Suddenly that takes it from an ambiguous non-specific religion to a specific "Muslim" or "Christian" religion based on its use.

    Furthermore this goes back to our prior argument. I don't see a big deal to keep it, or to leave it. I see it being a far more trouble and difficult thing to go about changing it...be it removing it or using a different word...than not doing it. If I think its pointless to take the time, energy, and resources to remove it why should I think its worth while to take the time, energy, and resources to change it?

    This is doubly so to change it to something that is far more likely to be controversial and come under fire due to the immensely more defined, immensely less traditional, and immensely less acceptable by the majority.

    If I don't care either way and yet feel slightly more apt to keep then remove because I see nothing particular WRONG with it and don't see the point in spending the time, energy, and resources to change it why in the world then would I say I'd be fine with supporting attempts to change it that would cause even greater amount of time, energy, and resources to be expended?

  3. #153
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Perhaps it's permissible to you and other people who believe in a higher power. I'm just saying I can see the other side of the argument.
    No, I mean in legal terms.
    The 1st amendment doesn't require that the government completely omit every reference to every religious tenet.

  4. #154
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm pretty sure its at the very least against school policy in just about the entire country and may very well be against the law to FORCE children to reciet the pledge. I was in school more than a decade ago in a rural southern town and even we were specifically told each and every year that:

    1) we didn't have to say under god if we didn't want
    2) we didn't have to say the pledge if we didn't want

    And never got in any trouble for it. I know the only major news story about someone being "Forced" to say the pledge in recent years had a teacher getting severely punished for performing such a thing.

    For it to FORCE acknowledgement it would have to be mandatory that all citizens say it. It absolutely, positively, is not.

    I would agree 100% with making it voluntary if it wasn't...but it IS. If a school is FORCING children to say it that's wrong, but that is a problem with the schools leadership or the guidelines they have, no with the pledge itself.
    I was sent to detention multiple times, forced to leave the classroom and stand in the hallway, singled out, and ridiculed for "choosing" not to recite the pledge. It most certainly was FORCED.

    Lastly, it should not be practiced in the classroom at all. Just like prayer, if someone wants to recite the pledge, they can do so at any time. No one is stopping them. That would be voluntary. There is no reason to set aside a time and require or even encourage students at the risk of ridicule to participate in fascism in our public schools. And, they most certainly shouldn't be encouraged to do that when the fascist pledge includes references to mythical beings implied to be watching over our country.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    There is a difference between something being added now and something that was added practically six decades ago with "under God" and over a century ago with "in God we trust". Those things are now a national motto and a matter of national tradition. Unless you are some old fucker who went to school before the mid 50s(and even if you did then most likely you have barely any or no recollection/memory of reciting the pledge of allegiance without the Under God part in it) you,me and practically every American member of DP has uttered "under God" in a our pledge of allegiance and our money and has always had "In God We Trust" on it(unless you were born before 1864 or you are a Naturalized citizen).
    So? It was recited for decades without 'under god' and then it was changed. It can be changed again.

    If a founding forefathers and majority of citizens were muslim and those in the 1800s were muslim and those in the mid 50s were muslim then our money would probably have Under Allah in our pledge of allegiance and In Allah we Trust on our money and the same thing for any other religion.
    Allah is just another name for 'god'. So, why not change it to under godS, or under goddess?


    I was born in the mid to late 1970s,so Under God was always in my pledge of allegiance and IN God we Trust was on our money.So it did not happen just yesterday.
    But there was one day where it DID happen yesterday. It was not always as it is now. So one day it was lacking the words 'under god' and the very next those words were added. No reason we can't change it again.


    I am not okay with changing tradition.
    Tradition was already changed. Not to mention, we change tradition all the ****ing time. It's usually called progress.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 03-12-10 at 02:28 PM.

  5. #155
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That's a reasonable stance, but then you should say you aren't OK with changing your traditions.
    But it has always been tradition to me and I am not for changing that tradition. IN God we Trust is now a national motto,so you can't change that. However if you want to leave out the under god part or change to under Allah then that is your business but officially the pledge of allegiance is has traditionally for almost 60 years has had under God in it.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  6. #156
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    It isn't the "under god" that makes it indoctrination, it is the whole thing. The very concept of a pledge of allegiance reeks of indoctrination. I heard a bunch of little kids chanting it in their creepy monotone way the other day as they stared with glassy eyes at the flag, and it reminded me of a similar pledge in some books I read:
    I don't think its indoctrination. It is a personal pledge a person makes. It is a way to state you believe in the principles and values that America is based on and what American stands for.

    If the kids are glassy eyed. Maybe it is because at home and in school the kids are not being taught the values of the United States of America.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Perhaps it's permissible to you and other people who believe in a higher power. I'm just saying I can see the other side of the argument.
    Random question for you.

    Lets take the two general assumptiosn each of us has made. Mine being that the generic "under god" does not establish a state religion nor infringe upon anyones ability to freely practice their religion and our shared one that one group or the other could simply not say it/say it if they wished and the fact its unconsitutional to FORCE someone to say the pledge/under god.

    Lets then say this...

    The majority of this country if, judeo-christian in belief, which could be expanded to say an even larger majority of it follows a religion that is monotheistic?

    Lets also say that in general those religious tenents state that one should never put anything above their god.

    So if its not unconsitutional to have a generic reference of "under god", its not consitutional to force someone to either say "under god" or to say the pledge exactly as its written, why then not make the intonation of it in such a way that both grouping of people can say it without overlapping lines considering that is what the majority of the country would do.

    For example, what I'm suggesting here is that one going

    One nation
    Under god
    Indivisible

    and one going

    One Nation
    . . . .
    Indivisible

    instead of the opposite way so you'd have.

    One Nation
    Indivisible
    For liberty and justice....

    and

    One Nation
    Under god
    Indivisible

    So you have a group then saying two seperate lines and completely off track with the pledge.

    No, I'm not saying this is a good reason to keep it. Its something that just hit my head. But your statement of "they could just add it in" struck me. If NEITHER are constitutionally wrong, and if the majority of the country would be doing the former, why take the time, effort, and resources to change it for it to still end up happening for the majority of people due to their belief structure for it then to become a jumbled mess when stated....

    Save for the notion that it'd be come so ridiculously stupid that it'd stop being used, which to me would just mean people are using it as a backhanded way to get rid of the pledge without being up front about it

    Sorry, wildly random tangent.

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I was sent to detention multiple times, forced to leave the classroom and stand in the hallway, singled out, and ridiculed for "choosing" not to recite the pledge. It most certainly was FORCED.

    Lastly, it should not be practiced in the classroom at all. Just like prayer, if someone wants to recite the pledge, they can do so at any time. No one is stopping them. That would be voluntary. There is no reason to set aside a time and require or even encourage students at the risk of ridicule to participate in fascism in our public schools. And, they most certainly shouldn't be encouraged to do that when the fascist pledge includes references to mythical beings implied to be watching over our country.
    rivrrat, I just wanted to say that it was a prior thread about this subject matter where you expressed a very similar opinion that you express above that made me think about the whole pledge and it's purpose. As a result of your thoughts, I concluded I would not say it again...ever. I see this as progress for me. Your words had a serious impact on me.

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I was sent to detention multiple times, forced to leave the classroom and stand in the hallway, singled out, and ridiculed for "choosing" not to recite the pledge. It most certainly was FORCED.
    And that's absolutely wrong and unconstitutional, and is something that currently schools and teachers get in extreme hot water for doing as evidenced most recently by the teacher punished for doing just that. Wrong doing in the past does not mean that it is standard practice in the present nor that it was the correct practice in the past.

    The fault was not in the pledge being unconsitituional but with your school being such. Take out your frustration on them rather than this transferance.

    Lastly, it should not be practiced in the classroom at all. Just like prayer, if someone wants to recite the pledge, they can do so at any time. No one is stopping them. That would be voluntary. There is no reason to set aside a time and require or even encourage students at the risk of ridicule to participate in fascism in our public schools. And, they most certainly shouldn't be encouraged to do that when the fascist pledge includes references to mythical beings implied to be watching over our country.
    Completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion about whether "Under god" is constitutionally allowed to be part of the pledge.

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    I can't believe that this is supposed to be such a serious issue of today.
    I don't care what side your on this crap is just stupid.

    To people who want under god in the pledge, if your religion is so weak that you need it to be affirmed by some arbitrary pledge to make it significant, I'd start looking at another form of worship.

    To everyone who gets pissed about it being there, ignore the pledge lovers.
    It does you no good to fight with them, they have a block in their brain that prevents them from understanding that not everyone believes in god.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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