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Thread: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

  1. #141
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Well, to be fair, "under God" doesn't really cover all religious beliefs considering that some people believe in more than one God, or a Goddess, or whatever else. Just saying "under God" isn't really all encompassing.
    It most certainly does not reference all religion because you're right, some don't have a "god" in the sense most people use it or have multiple. That said, I never made the claim it applies to everyone. The claim I made is that it in no way, shape, or form establishes a state religion because there's not a single person in here that can tell me a specific, singular, religion it establishes that the government is enforcing upon people.

    Now does somehow having "under god" printed on money, or having a completely voluntary pledge having it in its words, somehow infringe upons someones ability to freely practice their religion.

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Well, to be fair, "under God" doesn't really cover all religious beliefs considering that some people believe in more than one God, or a Goddess, or whatever else. Just saying "under God" isn't really all encompassing.
    Not all-encomapssing, but a generic refernce.
    Genereic reference is permissible.

  3. #143
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I honestly could care less if they keep it there or not. I see no reason to change it so essentially I see the over drawn efforts to change it to be wasteful, which is the only reason that really sides me with the "leave it" then "get rid of it" side instead of just being completely ambivilent.

    I just hate it when people make stupid statements on either side be it that it needs to be gone because its unconsitutional (because you know, an ambiguous "under god" that's on a voluntarily stated pledge or on a piece of money somehow "establishes a religion" even though its not direct of any particular religion, or it prohibits the free expression of religion some...how?) or it needs to stay because we're a christian country (first, no, one could argue a "christian nation" by the technical definition of Nation but not how most people use it. Second, no you could argue its founded on christian principles but it was founded with the mentality of an areligious government, IE a government without any real concern for religion either way).
    Exactly.

    However, my arguments tend to be on the side of the "remove it" people because I have yet to meet someone who supports it staying that would still be OK with it if it was changed to "Under Allah" (even though Allah is the same God as the Judeo-christian God) or "Under Vishnu" (Because "under God" is non-inclusive of Vishnu, but "under Vishnu still fails to establish a state religion).
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  4. #144
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    In a PUBLIC school where children are FORCED to recite a fascist pledge that includes religious overtones that specifically EXCLUDE certain religions and FORCES acknowledgment of some mythical being... that is most certainly a violation of church and state.
    I'm pretty sure its at the very least against school policy in just about the entire country and may very well be against the law to FORCE children to reciet the pledge. I was in school more than a decade ago in a rural southern town and even we were specifically told each and every year that:

    1) we didn't have to say under god if we didn't want
    2) we didn't have to say the pledge if we didn't want

    And never got in any trouble for it. I know the only major news story about someone being "Forced" to say the pledge in recent years had a teacher getting severely punished for performing such a thing.

    For it to FORCE acknowledgement it would have to be mandatory that all citizens say it. It absolutely, positively, is not.

    I would agree 100% with making it voluntary if it wasn't...but it IS. If a school is FORCING children to say it that's wrong, but that is a problem with the schools leadership or the guidelines they have, no with the pledge itself.

  5. #145
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    First off, I don't believe that for a second. But even if it were true, why would it matter how long it had been said?
    There is a difference between something being added now and something that was added practically six decades ago with "under God" and over a century ago with "in God we trust". Those things are now a national motto and a matter of national tradition. Unless you are some old fucker who went to school before the mid 50s(and even if you did then most likely you have barely any or no recollection/memory of reciting the pledge of allegiance without the Under God part in it) you,me and practically every American member of DP has uttered "under God" in a our pledge of allegiance and our money and has always had "In God We Trust" on it(unless you were born before 1864 or you are a Naturalized citizen).

    If a founding forefathers and majority of citizens were muslim and those in the 1800s were muslim and those in the mid 50s were muslim then our money would probably have Under Allah in our pledge of allegiance and In Allah we Trust on our money and the same thing for any other religion.

    We didn't way "under god" for over 50 years in the pledge, and then it was added into it.
    I was born in the mid to late 1970s,so Under God was always in my pledge of allegiance and IN God we Trust was on our money.So it did not happen just yesterday.


    S
    o, this would be the same. Tomorrow, we'll change 'under god' to 'under allah' or maybe 'under gods', or possibly 'under goddess', just like when they up and changed it in the 50s.
    And you'd honestly be okay with that?
    I am not okay with changing tradition.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I am not okay with changing tradition.
    You do realize that tradition was changed when these things were added, right?
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    If "under god" in the pledge is indoctrination, it sure is a piss poor one. Even the UK, which is way more liberal than us, sings "God save the Queen." They get 4 versus of that, we only get 2 words in our pledge....yea, we are soooo indoctrinating people.
    It isn't the "under god" that makes it indoctrination, it is the whole thing. The very concept of a pledge of allegiance reeks of indoctrination. I heard a bunch of little kids chanting it in their creepy monotone way the other day as they stared with glassy eyes at the flag, and it reminded me of a similar pledge in some books I read:

    "Master Rahl guide us. Master Rahl teach us. Master Rahl protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live only to serve. Our lives are yours."

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You do realize that tradition was changed when these things were added, right?

    In God We Trust and One Nation Under God has always been traditional to me.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #149
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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It most certainly does not reference all religion because you're right, some don't have a "god" in the sense most people use it or have multiple. That said, I never made the claim it applies to everyone. The claim I made is that it in no way, shape, or form establishes a state religion because there's not a single person in here that can tell me a specific, singular, religion it establishes that the government is enforcing upon people.
    That's my point though. I don't even see why it was officially added in the first place. Before it was officially added people could include it if they wanted to. Why wasn't that good enough? To me, that is a far better system than the way it is now.

    Now does somehow having "under god" printed on money, or having a completely voluntary pledge having it in its words, somehow infringe upons someones ability to freely practice their religion.
    No, but if it is in there it should be all fairly all encompassing. This is precisely why it was better before the official addition of "under God". It honestly isn't that big of a deal for me personally either way. I haven't said the Pledge since Elementary school.

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    Re: Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiance

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    In God We Trust and One Nation Under God has always been traditional to me.
    That's a reasonable stance, but then you should say you aren't OK with changing your traditions.
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