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Lesbian teen back at Miss. school after prom flap

They need to change the rules then.
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so says you.:doh

Probably shouldn't fight it then. Better to let the irl have her prom.
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No they fight by the means availble, and she lost.


The expectation was that they would let the girl bring her date to the prom, not that they would ruin the prom for everyone else.
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That is an absurd expectation.


If she wanted the prom canceled, why is she now trying to force the school to host the prom that you claim she wanted canceled?
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Obviously to paint herself as the good "guy".

My culture has different norms. But that aside, you think that any student asking to do something that falls outside of cultural norms is a reason to cancel the entire prom?
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If they have a well funded special interest behind them, YES.

Like if a hindu wanted to wear a turban to the prom? That falls outside of cultural norms. If the school said no turbans, and a student petitioned that the rules be changed so that he could wear his turban, "Oh no! We have to cancel the prom immediately!" Is that it?
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Well wearing a turban wouldnt disturb norms. BTW its the Shieks who wear turbans not the you so called man of the world. :lol:

The girl was told she couldn't bring a female date to the prom. She petitioned to get the rule changed through the proper channels. You are claiming that the more responsible course of action would have been to try and circumvent the rules on her own by showing up with her date and claiming that they were both attending "alone."
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If she would have accepted the No, there would be a prom. She wanted rules changed the school, said no, the ACLU came in and thats a wrap for the poor kids being attacked by these social radicals.

Protecting something by getting rid of it? Seems an apt analogy to me.
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Protecting something by refusing to demeanish it. Next year there will be a prom, if another student tries this they wont have an excuse of ignorance.


It seems more like a girl wanting to have a prom to me.
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Not to me.
 
OxymoronP said:
so says you.:doh



No they fight by the means availble, and she lost.



That is an absurd expectation.




Obviously to paint herself as the good "guy".


If they have a well funded special interest behind them, YES.



Well wearing a turban wouldnt disturb norms. BTW its the Shieks who wear turbans not the you so called man of the world. :lol:



If she would have accepted the No, there would be a prom. She wanted rules changed the school, said no, the ACLU came in and thats a wrap for the poor kids being attacked by these social radicals.



Protecting something by refusing to demeanish it. Next year there will be a prom, if another student tries this they wont have an excuse of ignorance.




Not to me.
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So, if the rules would have said interracial couples will not be allowed to go to the prom together, and she was fighting to bring her black bf, with the same results, would you still see it the same way? There are still a lot of people out there that don't believe that interracial dating is moral or right, and that it goes against "traditions". Heck not all of them are white either.

Also, the latest update is that some hotel owner in New Orleans is offering to allow them to have their prom at his hotel if the school doesn't host one. The reason is because he feels sympathy towards the girl and her cause. So, actually, this might give them a better prom and will be because of her if it happens.
 
Instead of debating the same points over and over and over again, lets look at the basics.

Is this a violation of her rights as the ACLU is claiming under the 1st Amendment?

No because the first amendment has never once included sexual preference as being under its banner.

Does the school have the right to enforce a dress code? Yes and its well established within the law.

Is there any law in Mississippi or at the federal level that elevates homosexual students to being forcefully accepted by the school?

No. Only 10 states in fact do have laws forcing acceptance of homosexual students and this state is not one of them.

Did this student being in the ACLU for the specific purpose of forcing the school to adapt to her sexual preference and clothing choice?

Yes. They were brought in to force the school to accept her sexual preference and she obviously had every intention of showing up in her tux with her girlfriend.

Did her direct action of bringing in the ACLU force the school to shut down the prom?

Yes. It was and is her sole responsibility since she decided to force the issue by bringing in a socialist organization to plead her case and try to force the school to accept her sexual orientation.


And wielding discrimination around as a hammer is incredibly dishonest since anyone who isn't allowed in from child rapists to 32 year old guys is also being "discriminated" against. Stop behaving like all discrimination is bad unless you are willing to allow everyone in regardless of any rules in place and recognize that you are only using the word discrimination because you personally approve of this particular sexual orientation.

And for those who claim that the comparison to other sexual orientations cannot be made if you force homosexual marriage as acceptable then cite law as your basis for rejecting them are the ultimate hypocrites since the same people wish to change or write new law for homosexuality.

You cannot hide behind law when its a sexual orientation you don't approve of like pedophilia or polygamy while at the same time demand written law banning homosexual marriage in the same breath.

And please do not insult gender or racial bias with bias historical struggles by comparing them to a sexual orientation never once proven to be genetic. Its not only insulting, it doesn't make you look very good when you can't even prove its a genetic trait no matter how many people profess to being "born that way". I'm sure there are many pedos who would make the same claim and I doubt very much anyone here would support it.

And no matter how many people on here scream about how society is "changing" on its views on homosexuality, gay marriage voted on by the people is still 0-31.
 
texmaster said:
Instead of debating the same points over and over and over again, lets look at the basics.

Is this a violation of her rights as the ACLU is claiming under the 1st Amendment?

No because the first amendment has never once included sexual preference as being under its banner.

Does the school have the right to enforce a dress code? Yes and its well established within the law.

Is there any law in Mississippi or at the federal level that elevates homosexual students to being forcefully accepted by the school?

No. Only 10 states in fact do have laws forcing acceptance of homosexual students and this state is not one of them.

Did this student being in the ACLU for the specific purpose of forcing the school to adapt to her sexual preference and clothing choice?

Yes. They were brought in to force the school to accept her sexual preference and she obviously had every intention of showing up in her tux with her girlfriend.

Did her direct action of bringing in the ACLU force the school to shut down the prom?

Yes. It was and is her sole responsibility since she decided to force the issue by bringing in a socialist organization to plead her case and try to force the school to accept her sexual orientation.


And wielding discrimination around as a hammer is incredibly dishonest since anyone who isn't allowed in from child rapists to 32 year old guys is also being "discriminated" against. Stop behaving like all discrimination is bad unless you are willing to allow everyone in regardless of any rules in place and recognize that you are only using the word discrimination because you personally approve of this particular sexual orientation.

And for those who claim that the comparison to other sexual orientations cannot be made if you force homosexual marriage as acceptable then cite law as your basis for rejecting them are the ultimate hypocrites since the same people wish to change or write new law for homosexuality.

You cannot hide behind law when its a sexual orientation you don't approve of like pedophilia or polygamy while at the same time demand written law banning homosexual marriage in the same breath.

And please do not insult gender or racial bias with bias historical struggles by comparing them to a sexual orientation never once proven to be genetic. Its not only insulting, it doesn't make you look very good when you can't even prove its a genetic trait no matter how many people profess to being "born that way". I'm sure there are many pedos who would make the same claim and I doubt very much anyone here would support it.

And no matter how many people on here scream about how society is "changing" on its views on homosexuality, gay marriage voted on by the people is still 0-31.
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Wow, this is quite a morass of irrational gibberish that you've compiled here. And all because people are scared of a girl in a tux. Interesting. I never really realized what a threat an 18-year-old girl, with dimples, could pose to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
 
so says you.
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And as is often the case, I am right.

No they fight by the means availble,[sic] and she lost.
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Not according to you. According to you, getting prom canceled was her plan all along.

That is an absurd expectation.
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Why is that absurd?

Obviously to paint herself as the good "guy".
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Obviously.:roll: It couldn't be that she wants to have a prom...

If they have a well funded special interest behind them, YES.
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Wow.

Well wearing a turban wouldnt[sic] disturb norms. BTW its the Shieks who wear turbans not the you so called man of the world.
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So you're saying it isn't normal for a Hindu to wear a turban? Oh noes! Better cancel the prom!

FYI the Dastar isn't the only turban in the world.

If she would have accepted the No, there would be a prom. She wanted rules changed the school, said no, the ACLU came in and thats[sic] a wrap for the poor kids being attacked by these social radicals.
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The ACLU were her representatives. She was going through the proper channels to get rules changed. Same as you would petition your own representatives to get a law changed.

Protecting something by refusing to demeanish[sic] it. Next year there will be a prom, if another student tries this they wont have an excuse of ignorance.
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If the school tries to have another prom, they will have to allow students to bring same sex dates. It seems more likely that they just won't have another prom until someone less bigoted gets put in charge.
 
And as is often the case, I am right.
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Ok mr.arrogant I will take you at your word :roll:.


Not according to you. According to you, getting prom canceled was her plan all along.
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Her plan was for them to deny her, thus allowing her to have a case.

Why is that absurd?
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Because expecting organizations to lay down before radicals is absurd.


Obviously.:roll: It couldn't be that she wants to have a prom...
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No.




The ACLU were her representatives. She was going through the proper channels to get rules changed. Same as you would petition your own representatives to get a law changed.
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Yes they were here representatives, which forced the boards hand and killed the prom for her classmates.

If the school tries to have another prom, they will have to allow students to bring same sex dates. It seems more likely that they just won't have another prom until someone less bigoted gets put in charge.
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They are not bigots for protecting our values. As far as the prom, I am sure they will figure out ways to prepare for this situation. Dont think this radical social agenda will have a hold on America. we are a Center Right country, this sort of thing will not fly.
 
So, if the rules would have said interracial couples will not be allowed to go to the prom together, and she was fighting to bring her black bf, with the same results, would you still see it the same way? There are still a lot of people out there that don't believe that interracial dating is moral or right, and that it goes against "traditions". Heck not all of them are white either
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.

Dont try equating being gay with being black, that is absurd.
 
texmaster said:
Instead of debating the same points over and over and over again, lets look at the basics.
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OK

Is this a violation of her rights as the ACLU is claiming under the 1st Amendment?

No because the first amendment has never once included sexual preference as being under its banner.
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Title lX and 14th amendment rights are what you are looking for as I understand it.

Precedent was set for exactly such an application in Fricke v. Lynch.

Does the school have the right to enforce a dress code? Yes and its well established within the law.
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They can't discriminate based on gender though. If they let the boys wear tuxes, they have to let the girls wear tuxes too.

Is there any law in Mississippi or at the federal level that elevates homosexual students to being forcefully accepted by the school?

No. Only 10 states in fact do have laws forcing acceptance of homosexual students and this state is not one of them.
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Title lX and 14th amendment rights. Fricke v. Lynch.

Did this student being in the ACLU for the specific purpose of forcing the school to adapt to her sexual preference and clothing choice?

Yes. They were brought in to force the school to accept her sexual preference and she obviously had every intention of showing up in her tux with her girlfriend.
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Ah, but she had every intention of not breaking the rules when she did so, since the rules would have been changed through the proper channels first.

Did her direct action of bringing in the ACLU force the school to shut down the prom?
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No. The school could have still had the prom. THey could have fought the ACLU in court, or they could have let the girl bring her date.

Yes. It was and is her sole responsibility since she decided to force the issue by bringing in a socialist organization to plead her case and try to force the school to accept her sexual orientation.
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:lol: Ok, I really have to hear how this is socialist...

And wielding discrimination around as a hammer is incredibly dishonest since anyone who isn't allowed in from child rapists to 32 year old guys is also being "discriminated" against.

Stop behaving like all discrimination is bad unless you are willing to allow everyone in regardless of any rules in place and recognize that you are only using the word discrimination because you personally approve of this particular sexual orientation.
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So why isn't the school owning up to their discrimination if it isn't bad?

And for those who claim that the comparison to other sexual orientations cannot be made if you force homosexual marriage as acceptable then cite law as your basis for rejecting them are the ultimate hypocrites since the same people wish to change or write new law for homosexuality.

You cannot hide behind law when its a sexual orientation you don't approve of like pedophilia or polygamy while at the same time demand written law banning homosexual marriage in the same breath.
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Off topic

And please do not insult gender or racial bias with bias historical struggles by comparing them to a sexual orientation never once proven to be genetic.
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Irrelevant. Why should it need to be genetic?

Its not only insulting, it doesn't make you look very good when you can't even prove its a genetic trait no matter how many people profess to being "born that way". I'm sure there are many pedos who would make the same claim and I doubt very much anyone here would support it.
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Still irrelevant.

And no matter how many people on here scream about how society is "changing" on its views on homosexuality, gay marriage voted on by the people is still 0-31.
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Also irrelevant.
 
OxymoronP said:
Because expecting organizations to lay down before radicals is absurd.

They are not bigots for protecting our values. As far as the prom, I am sure they will figure out ways to prepare for this situation. Dont think this radical social agenda will have a hold on America. we are a Center Right country, this sort of thing will not fly.
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Two thoughts:

1. I don't consider the idea of gay/lesbian students attending prom with other gay/lesbian students to be particularly provocative, perhaps because that's a fairly normal scenario in my daughter's high school in Florida. The earth has not yet opened up and swallowed us, and society as we know it has not ended.

2. I don't believe that they are protecting "our" values. They are protecting the values of some people. The problem is that we aren't a straight democracy, we are a constitutional republic. And our founding documents provide for the protection of minority populations.

This student had a right to be treated the same as everyone else. The response by her school was a complete overreaction.

The fact of the matter is that the girl should have been allowed to bring anyone she wanted as a date, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. The event is FOR THE STUDENTS. The goal is to allow as many students, as possible, to participate, not to intentionally exclude some.

What if she'd wanted to bring a platonic female friend because neither girl had a date? Should they be excluded from participating because no boy asked them to attend?
 
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OxymoronP said:
Ok mr.arrogant I will take you at your word :roll:.




Her plan was for them to deny her, thus allowing her to have a case.



Because expecting organizations to lay down before radicals is absurd.




No.






Yes they were here representatives, which forced the boards hand and killed the prom for her classmates.



They are not bigots for protecting our values. As far as the prom, I am sure they will figure out ways to prepare for this situation. Dont think this radical social agenda will have a hold on America. we are a Center Right country, this sort of thing will not fly.
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Sounds a lot like those arguments against interracial marriages. There would only be about half as many supporters of the schools' decision if this case were about an interracial couple (probably less than half). Yet most of your arguments seem to suggest otherwise. The fact is limiting couples to only hetero is an unfair rule.
And, technically, limiting students to what they may wear to prom based on gender is discrimination, plain and simple. It may be a reasonable argument to have a gender based dress code in school, where it could definitely distract from the learning environment. That argument does not work when you're talking about prom. And what's traditional doesn't work either because I bet they aren't limiting the style of dresses and tuxes to anything "traditional". What tradition would that attire look like anyway?
 
1. I don't consider the idea of gay/lesbian students attending prom with other gay/lesbian students to be particularly provocative, perhaps because that's a fairly normal scenario in my daughter's high school in Florida. The earth has not yet opened up and swallowed us, and society as we know it has not ended.
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It wouldnt envitably fail as a direct result, but it does undermine our society and leads to long term decay.

2. I don't believe that they are protecting "our" values. They are protecting the values of some people. The problem is that we aren't a straight democracy, we are a constitutional republic. And our founding documents provide for the protection of minority populations.
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Yes that is true, but not to the extent of harming the majority.

This student had a right to be treated the same as everyone else. The response by her school was a complete overreaction.
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Yes she has the right to bring a date to the prom of the opposite sex and follow the dress code like everyone else. Basically if a minority can change rules then whats the point of them?

The fact of the matter is that the girl should have been allowed to bring anyone she wanted as a date, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. The event is FOR THE STUDENTS. The goal is to allow as many students, as possible, to participate, not to intentionally exclude some.
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She chose to be excluded by not following the rules.

What if she'd wanted to bring a platonic female friend because neither girl had a date? Should they be excluded from participating because no boy asked them to attend?
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No tuxedo, no date = Fine by me.
 
OxymoronP said:
It wouldnt envitably fail as a direct result, but it does undermine our society and leads to long term decay.
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Evidence?

Yes that is true, but not to the extent of harming the majority.
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Majority rights do not trump minority rights.

Yes she has the right to bring a date to the prom of the opposite sex and follow the dress code like everyone else. Basically if a minority can change rules then whats the point of them?
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Maybe the rules are stupid and outdated. :shrug:

What is the goal of prom? Is it to reinforce gender roles in formal wear? Or to promote school belonging, and to celebrate the accomplishments of the students?

Do you really think that specifying that students must wear a gender-based attire that we are reinforcing traditional values? Does the school require female students to wear dresses on a daily basis?

I would say that the school's focus is off. The goal should be to encourage students to dress appropriately. A woman wearing a tuxedo is just as appropriate in a formal setting in these days as a ballgown. So, the school's rules are out of step with normal behavior.
 
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Evidence?
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Evidence that nothing is getting worse?

My position is based on preserving cultural integrity, and risking its undermining is enough for me to be concerned.

Majority rights do not trump minority rights.
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Infact they do.

Maybe the rules are stupid and outdated. :shrug:
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Maybe they are vital and current.

What is the goal of prom? Is it to reinforce gender roles in formal wear? Or to promote school belonging, and to celebrate the accomplishments of the students?
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Both.
 
OxymoronP said:
My position is based on preserving cultural integrity, and risking its undermining is enough for me to be concerned.
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Our cultural integrity is dependent on the type of formal wear that students choose for prom?

Infact they do.
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The burden of proof is on the affirmative.

Maybe they are vital and current.
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They are out of step with the majority of schools nationwide, I suspect. And probably, with the majority of schools in Mississippi. That's a good indicator that they are not vital and current.

My daughter's school requires APPROPRIATE formal attire. The dresses and/or formalwear that the students wear must fit the same requirements of clothing on a normal school day. that means no bare midriffs, shoulders, etc.

I have considerably more concern about girls EXPOSING THEMSELVES at prom than I do about a girl in a tux. A tux would certainly be more modest than the average prom gown.

Have you considered that?

The goal of prom is to reinforce gender roles? Wow. I'm guessing you don't have a lot of interaction with teenagers.
 
OxymoronP said:
.

Dont try equating being gay with being black, that is absurd.
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I didn't. Interracial could also mean Asian and white, latino and black, or pretty much any other racial/ethnic pairing between to recognized racial divisions.

But this is the same argument. It's about attraction to a certain type of person, whether it be someone of a different color or ancestry, someone of the same or opposite sex, someone with certain body features or characteristics, i.e. hair color, eye color, body size, or even someone with certain personality or intelligence traits. This isn't about a person, this is about attraction of a person to someone else. And if you are going to allow that to be limited for any reason, than it is not impossible to compare it to other similar limitations.
 
Re: Mississippi School Cancels Prom

CaptainCourtesy said:
Hold a mirror up to this comment and you will then know how the other side feels about how your side behaves.
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Actually...I DO go about my life...live my life...and do my best to love and accept everypne..even those I disagree with.

Oh...I get there is a bit of a difference. The point is I work with a fairly large percentage of homosexuals who simply live their lives and are actually HAPPY. The ones that ARENT are the ones that seek happiness by OTHER PEOPLE bending to accept them.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Our cultural integrity is dependent on the type of formal wear that students choose for prom?



The burden of proof is on the affirmative.



They are out of step with the majority of schools nationwide, I suspect. And probably, with the majority of schools in Mississippi. That's a good indicator that they are not vital and current.

My daughter's school requires APPROPRIATE formal attire. The dresses and/or formalwear that the students wear must fit the same requirements of clothing on a normal school day. that means no bare midriffs, shoulders, etc.

I have considerably more concern about girls EXPOSING THEMSELVES at prom than I do about a girl in a tux. A tux would certainly be more modest than the average prom gown.

Have you considered that?
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But Catz... girlies can't wear PANTS! :shock: It would start a chain reaction that could bring about the next apocalypse!!
 
Re: Mississippi School Cancels Prom

VanceMack said:
Oh...I get there is a bit of a difference. The point is I work with a fairly large percentage of homosexuals who simply live their lives and are actually HAPPY. The ones that ARENT are the ones that seek happiness by OTHER PEOPLE bending to accept them.
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I don't believe that much bending is required to allow a high school student to select the date of his/her choice and dress within the constraints of their school dress code.

Believe it or not, there are girls out there who aren't particularly comfortable in a dress. In most schools, they are allowed to wear equivalent appropriate formalwear.

I don't believe that this has resulted in massive social upheaval. :shrug:
 
rivrrat said:
But Catz... girlies can't wear PANTS! :shock: It would start a chain reaction that could bring about the next apocalypse!!
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We're talking a disaster of biblical proportions....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0"]YouTube- Biblical Proportions[/ame]
 
Anti-gay prom bias wins the prize | theCLog


Marlene Dietrich, contributing to the downfall of Western Society since the 1940s...
MDtux1.JPG
 
You know, this happened last year in Alabama, too.

Russellville, Alabama School Prom Discrimination | American Civil Liberties Union

Two girls went to prom together, the world did not end. In Alabama, no less.

From the ACLU, on the subject:

Do I have the right to take a same-sex date to the prom?

Yes. A student’s choice to take a same-sex date to a prom, or any other school function, is a political statement protected by the First Amendment. In 1980 a gay student in Rhode Island sued his school for refusing to let him attend his senior prom with a male date, and won. The court concluded that unless the school had a solid factual basis for believing that a same-gender couple would cause severe disruption, the school had to permit everyone to attend with his or her chosen date. The court even required that the school provide security in case the couple was harassed. (Fricke v. Lynch, 1980). Also, Title IX bars a school from discriminating by gender in its prom invitations.
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OxymoronP said:
It wouldnt envitably fail as a direct result, but it does undermine our society and leads to long term decay.
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So because you have this imagined scenario of the future, that you base on zero evidence except your own preconceived notions, we should treat certain people like ****.
 
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