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Thread: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Nobody said we were a paragon of virtue. But we were better than torture. We have ideals. That's what we're about. We're supposed to be special.
    So we dropped napalm on little girls, but because we didn't make alleged terrorists stand for more than 12 hours or suffer the indignity of being interrogated by women, we're somehow special?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So we dropped napalm on little girls, but because we didn't make alleged terrorists stand for more than 12 hours or suffer the indignity of being interrogated by women, we're somehow special?
    So the logic here is: We've already done bad things so why not just keep doing them?

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Nobody said we were a paragon of virtue. But we were better than torture. We have ideals. That's what we're about. We're supposed to be special.
    We KILL terrorists all the time, yet "torturing" them is totally immoral. How can you justify killing someone but not "torturing" them?

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    A couple of interesting items on the ineffectiveness of torture. Things to ponder that you might not think of:



    New Study Shows That Torturing People Makes Them Forget the Facts You Want Them to Confess | Popular Science



    Torture Does Not Yield Useful Information
    So, because "torture" doesn't work sometimes, we should refrain from using it at all times? By that same logic, we should refrain from asking questions altogether.

    Like I said, our intelligence operatives should be given the option to use it. I'm not saying they should go around indiscriminatingly maiming people.

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    So the logic here is: We've already done bad things so why not just keep doing them?
    I disagree that "torturing" terrorists is a bad thing.

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    We KILL terrorists all the time, yet "torturing" them is totally immoral. How can you justify killing someone but not "torturing" them?
    Because we kill them on a battlefield during a war where they are trying to kill us. If they surrender, we DON'T kill them.

    But I guess you're right. Let's play God, ignore the treaties we've signed, treat anyone we don't like as expendable, go against traditions about how we've deal with prisoners of war that we've held since George Washington, and then wonder why we the rest of the world hates us and wants to kill us.

    After all, doing all this under the Bush administration sure did stop all those terrorists, right?

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I disagree that "torturing" terrorists is a bad thing.
    Duh.

    But then again, I suppose if I were evil, I'd feel the same way.

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    *sigh* I'm not going to spin off into a discussion of Quirin. Begin another thread if you'd like.
    How are you going to claim that the Bush administration's policies re: tribunals were harsher than ever before, and then run away when I point out that they're absolutely not? It's perfectly relevant to your argument - the fact that it doesn't help you doesn't change that.


    No, emphatically I have not and have stated the opposite the whole way through including the post you just replied to:

    Going back further in the thread:

    Further still:

    Further....:

    The beginning:

    And though I stated poorly, initially, I clarified my position from that point forward. See above.
    If you're arguing that the principles in one are more important than in the other, that's been roundly rejected. If you're arguing that the two are identical in terms of the principles at issue, but one is more "politically important," then I don't know why you think that matters one bit as to the question of what it says about the lawyers who are involved. There is no intelligible way to distinguish the two.

    No, because the lawyers, such as Kaytal, were successful in forcing Bush into compliance, as I said in the post before:
    And you think that once the lawyers won Hamdan, they all said "good work guys!" and went home? Of course not. They're still challenging all sorts of policies, both under Bush and Obama.


    That is a tricky idea to articulate because some arguments are made, just to make them and keep appeals going rather than moving the case forward. I was trying to quantify the difference. So let me amend, if they are arguing on demonstrably sound principles, rather than the above example, and that is a judgment call, then I wouldn't object to them out of hand.
    Every lawyer is required to have a good faith basis for his argument otherwise he can be sanctioned by the court. Almost by definition, if a lawyer is making a claim, then there are demonstrably sound principles supporting his position.

    Given that, is it safe to say that if Alberto Gonzales had taken a bunch of lawyers who had spent years dedicating their free time to white supremacists and appointed them to work in the civil rights division, you'd have no problem with that?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #179
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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    So the logic here is: We've already done bad things so why not just keep doing them?
    No, the logic here is "we've never been this paragon of moral virtue, so we shouldn't revise history to hide that."
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Republicans scold Liz Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Because we kill them on a battlefield during a war where they are trying to kill us.
    So, you morally justify one form of violence but not the other.

    If they surrender, we DON'T kill them.
    What will happen to Osama Bin Laden if we capture him?

    But I guess you're right. Let's play God, ignore the treaties we've signed...
    What treaties?

    ...treat anyone we don't like as expendable, go against traditions about how we've deal with prisoners of war that we've held since George Washington, and then wonder why we the rest of the world hates us and wants to kill us.
    I can't believe a grown adult, a lawyer no less, has bought into this childish narrative.

    By the way, terrorists aren't considered POWs; they're unlawful combatants. Maybe you should read the Geneva Conventions before you presume to know what you're talking about.

    After all, doing all this under the Bush administration sure did stop all those terrorists, right?
    So, if the terrorists aren't defeated after Obama leaves office, we can just assume that predator drones are useless? Impressive logic...

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