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Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

No, the opposite is true. What the quote represents is Hamilton's position that the Constitution should only have in it general provisions. Since society changes, these general provisions can be used to interpret the changing societial needs.

And building a cage of willow switches serves what purpose? Why bother with broadly flexible flimsy easily bent rules, when it's far far easier to have no rules at all.

If rules have no force, they have no meaning.

That means they're not rules at all.

Hamilton opposed the First Amendment on the grounds that there was no need to place a restriction on the government from doing that which the Constitution did not grant the power to do in the first place.

Hamilton also said, in Federalist 83, that it was meaningless to create the specific enumerated powers of governement if the government was able, as some claimed, to seize what power it wanted to do as it will. In modern terms, Hamilton did not see any blank checks in his Constitution.

That means no flimsy flexible rules.
 
What it means is that a constitution must not be ultra specific.

Like it saying a right to free speech instead of speech by word of mouth or a printing press.
The right to bear arms instead of the right to bear flintlock muskets and bladed weapons.

It's provisions cover future technological developments and thus there is no need to update those specific sections, for the most part.

A constitution that is not grounded, is nothing at all.
If it is so flexible, who is to decide when and where that flexibility it can apply?
Can free speech be clamped down on because a person in power thinks society shouldn't have that wide option?

I do not think you should enable someone to smudge your contractual assets and you get nothing in return.
It's a bad deal for you and a good deal for them.

The First Amendment says both freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

Other means of mass communication did not exist, and in a correct form of judicial interpretation, the freedoms of press and speech have been expanded to both individuals being represented by the corporations they've invested in, and by freedoms of the various electronics media. For the most part.

That wonderful judicial activism and Living Document **** kept Eugene Debb in jail for years, for the heinous crime of publicly opposing Wilson's interventionist war in Europe.

Great stuff, that Living Document ****, when you want to impose authoritarian rule. For some reason, Living Document **** doesn't apply when people want to protect their freedoms.

LDS (sorry, not referring to the Mormons here) is most dramatically applied when people want to babble about how the "Founders" didn't know about laser sighted fully autoomatic "assault" rifles. NO, oh no! THEN the LDS is about restricting freedoms. Can't have law abiding citizens having them there modern weapons.

Other LDS allowed the creation of the FHA. Which led to the CRA, which led to CRA II, eventually the busted mortgage crisis of 2008.

Can someone cite, in their Living Document, where the Messiah derives the authority to intervene in bank foreclosures? Where people who pay their mortgage and their taxes are required to pay more taxes so people who won't pay their mortgages get to keep a house they haven't paid for?

Cite the clause of this magical Living Document that says the government can take dollars from people who have decided they didn't want their dollars going to General Motors and then giving those dollars to GM anyway?

Anyone REALLY beleive that Hamilton or Madison or anyone living in that era would accept the notion that the government should have the power to tax the people to prevent a private company from going bankrupt? No, those people NEVER believed that, and thus this whole Living Document **** is just that, the watery ploppings of a flatuent cow that never saw the shores of the real America.
 
So what do you recommend we do about it, Scarecrow?
 
Nothing in the constitution about a Presidents cabinet neither.
Article 2, Section 2




I disagree with that take, the Supreme court has been vital in protecting the spirit of the constitution. I dont see them as acting outside the constitution, I think the Founders envisioned a Court that would protect us from the Tyranny of the Majority. For example the Court should have never allowed prohibition even though it was passed through majority, prohibition was a direct violation of peoples civil rights. As is the legislation against drugs.
 
Interestingly enough, that Three-Fifth's issue was resolved by....get this, by a Constitutional AMENDMENT. Ohh....no "living document" bull**** there, just a flat out change to the Constitution.

Fancy that.

The Democrats and their Jim Crow nonsense was condoned by the Courts in the Plessy vs Ferguson decision....a fine example of the Living Document Theory at work.

Nowhere in the Constitution is the federal government allowed to provide transportation services, hence no where in the Constitution can be found any basis for the so-called Seperate But Equal transport arrangements enacted in the Southern States after Reconstruction, and since it can't be found in the document, the idea that a "living" Constitution covered the insanity of racial segregation is flat absurd.

However, it was the Living Document Theory that created federal toleration of racial segregation, not any sort of strict constructionism.



How about 'em? The Constitution doesn't grant women the right to murder babies. It's not in there.

Again, the Living Document Theory has created magically appearing formerly non-existent rights, that have led to the destruction of nearly one hundred million babies since Roe v Wade created new unconstituitonal laws.



Yes, how dare the federal government intrude on what everyone recognized was a state and local issue. Try reading the Tenth Amendment sometime.



I disagree.

There's the socialists and Marxists and other "progressives". To be a useless idiot like that and not even realize their useless idiots, that's true self-debasement there.



Sodomy isn't a federal issue, except for national security employment aspects such as military personnel and federal employees with access to sensitive security information.

Identify the clause of the Constitution that gives the federal governemnt to interfere in state sodomy laws. I agree that fudge packing among consenting adults isn't something the state and local government should intervene in, just provide the Constitutional justification for making sodomy a federal issue.

All good points, and all completely irrelevant to what I was arguing. Councilmen never even spoke about the "living Constitution" or the role of the federal government in the part of his post that I quoted. If you are going to quote me, then at least please try to understand what I am arguing.

Now perhaps you are right and the Constitution does guarantee states to have their laws against abortion, sodomy, black people associating with white people, etc. but that has nothing to do with what I was arguing.
 
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the difference is (typically) fundamental

the strict constructionist TRIES to interpret the constitution as it was written, as it was intended

the activist OPENLY ATTEMPTS to perceive its copy in the light of CHANGING political, social and economic circumstances
 
I hate the guy but definitely don't consider him radical or an extremist. He's all sorts of things but not that.

anyone who appoints van jones and kevin jennings is a radical

anyone who sees jeremiah wright as a mentor is an extremist

you really shouldn't hate, it's not good for YOU
 
All good points, and all completely irrelevant to what I was arguing. Councilmen never even spoke about the "living Constitution" or the role of the federal government in the part of his post that I quoted. If you are going to quote me, then at least please try to understand what I am arguing.

Now perhaps you are right and the Constitution does guarantee states to have their laws against abortion, sodomy, black people associating with white people, etc. but that has nothing to do with what I was arguing.
In case your forgot, the Constitution has been amended over 20 times to address certain issues, but they do not affect the interpretation of those sections of the constitution they do not address.
 
In case your forgot, the Constitution has been amended over 20 times to address certain issues, but they do not affect the interpretation of those sections of the constitution they do not address.

And I care why?

As I have stated, I could care less how the government should ideally be run, I'm more interested in how it is actually run. And the way it has ran since 1803 is as the Constitution being treated as a living document, sometimes intentionally, usually inadvertently, but always as a living document.
 
So I assume that those who have problems with Liu's experience had problems with Brett Kavanaugh's experience as well.

Just as a refresher. He graduated from law school in 1990, when Bush nominated him to the Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit. U.S. Court of Appeals - D.C. Circuit - Brett M. Kavanaugh (202) 216-7180

In terms of experience, he's not that much better (although I'll note that he had been a lawyer for 4 more years and has a marginally more impressive academic background). You're right that it would be hard to justify supporting Kavanaugh while opposing Liu solely on the grounds that he wasn't experienced enough, but I don't think anyone is doing that. My primary concerns about Liu relate to his actions in regards to the Alito confirmation and what they indicate about his views and prospective judicial approach.

It's also worth noting that the Dems stalled Kavanaugh's confirmation for almost three years. Are you saying that you think it would be fair for the Republicans to do the same here?
 
I'm doubtful as to whether this is a good nominee. He's got a decent background, but what exactly makes him qualified to be on the 9th Circuit? He has no judicial experience, has been a lawyer for exactly 12 years, and seems like more of an activist than an impartial arbiter of the law. He testified before Congress to criticize Alito's qualifications based on some dubious arguments, and comes across as the kind of person who places ideology above consistency.

In reference to Alito, Alito is a judical activist and a Bush stooge. I do not believe he should have ever been allowed on the bench.
 
In reference to Alito, Alito is a judical activist and a Bush stooge. I do not believe he should have ever been allowed on the bench.

And if you'd testified to that effect before Congress, I wouldn't support your nomination to the 9th Circuit either. Fair?
 
in the case of activists the constitution breathes, and it's always intentional

constructionists imposing personal biases would be inadvertent
 
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The Ninth Circuit Court of shlameals is the most overturned Court in America hands down.

They have a history of getting it wrong and adding another radical is not going to help.

An amendment to the Constitution should make it illegal to attempt to change any decision made by the Supreme Court on any subject.

The Values our Nation were founded on should not be subject to change because some wacko liberals has some whim.

We have sen in the last 50 years so many attacks on our values, making acts so perverse they flu in the face any value system it's not funny.

Liberals are trying to destroy or Nation and they use threats, intimidation and claims of intolerance to force their unnatural ways of life and thinking on the rest of us.

Enough is enough.
good god........"unnatural ways of life"?

is somebody forcing you to be "unnatural"? how does that work?
 
In case your forgot, the Constitution has been amended over 20 times to address certain issues, but they do not affect the interpretation of those sections of the constitution they do not address.
just the fact that there CAN be amendments means the constitution is a living document.
 
In terms of experience, he's not that much better (although I'll note that he had been a lawyer for 4 more years and has a marginally more impressive academic background). You're right that it would be hard to justify supporting Kavanaugh while opposing Liu solely on the grounds that he wasn't experienced enough, but I don't think anyone is doing that. My primary concerns about Liu relate to his actions in regards to the Alito confirmation and what they indicate about his views and prospective judicial approach.

It's also worth noting that the Dems stalled Kavanaugh's confirmation for almost three years. Are you saying that you think it would be fair for the Republicans to do the same here?

I agree with you. Liu's lack of experience is a major concern. Now, the only thing that makes me feel better is that he's nominated to (1) an appeals court and (2) an appeals court that doesn't seem to get upheld by the Supreme Court very much. I don't think anyone should be nominated for the district court if they have no judicial experience.

If they held up his nomination, I don't know if I would think that was a bad thing. My husband went to high school with Kavanaugh and was appalled when he got nominated. Come on! The Democrats should not call foul if Liu's confirmation is held up. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
just the fact that there CAN be amendments means the constitution is a living document.
No, that is not what is meant by living document in most debates.
 
just the fact that there CAN be amendments means the constitution is a living document.

Uh, no. Because there is the Amendment mechanism in the Constitution it means the Constitution is not subject creative judicial interpretation to alter it's meaning.

The only way the Constitution can be adjusted to fit modern realities is the Amendment process.

Hiring a bunch of judges to begin claiming what isn't Constitutional now is, as FDR threatened to do, is a clear violation of the intent of the Constitution itself.
 
Uh, no. Because there is the Amendment mechanism in the Constitution it means the Constitution is not subject creative judicial interpretation to alter it's meaning.

The only way the Constitution can be adjusted to fit modern realities is the Amendment process.

Hiring a bunch of judges to begin claiming what isn't Constitutional now is, as FDR threatened to do, is a clear violation of the intent of the Constitution itself.
i never said it was open to creative judicial interpretation. i said it was a living document, meaning, it can be adjusted to fit modern realities. it's not static.

seems pretty simple to me. both sides hire judges, you just don't like it when your side isn't doing the hiring.
 
Uh, no. Because there is the Amendment mechanism in the Constitution it means the Constitution is not subject creative judicial interpretation to alter it's meaning.

The only way the Constitution can be adjusted to fit modern realities is the Amendment process.

Hiring a bunch of judges to begin claiming what isn't Constitutional now is, as FDR threatened to do, is a clear violation of the intent of the Constitution itself.

Yup, it is part of the Alinsky process for Socialism/Communism.....;)
 
the amendment process demonstrates the document lives---LOL!

here's as good a place as any to put this

msnbc this morning (best politics on tv) is covering obama's rah rah in glenside, pennsylvania

he's speechifying before his usual hand-picked crowd of enthusiastic supporters---gosh, it's good to get outta dc, washington's a wonderful town, and all, the folks there are great, but they have a way of looking at every issue, every move, as, "how is this going to effect the next election," who's winning, who's losing...

obama...

PAINTING HIMSELF AS OUTSIDER!

LOL!

BARRY BATTLES THE BELTWAY---now, there's a bumper

remember when he tried to play POPULIST that day?

one day, he was POPULIST for a day

then he forgot

it really wasn't working, as well

it's true, tho, obama really isn't so much all about dc

he's far more CHICAGO

now, that's really OUTSIDE the mainstream

LOL!
 
Come now, we know that in order to interpret the Constitution, you have to ignore the founding fathers who told you that it should be interpreted (like Jefferson and Madison) and only pay attention to the ones who said that it was set in stone (like none of them).

I mean, seriously. What do lawyers and professors who study history and the law more than anyone else in the entire world know, anyway?
 
just the fact that there CAN be amendments means the constitution is a living document.

Like many in this thread, you're misunderstanding the concept of the Constitution as a "living document."

Nobody denies that the Constitution can be changed over time as we add or subtract various provisions via the amendment process. That's not what "living document" means.

The idea of the constitution as a living document is that the existing words and meaning of the constitution change over time to mean different things depending on how society has changed. The simplest example is that although the 8th Amendment's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" very clearly allowed capital punishment when it was drafted, a proponent of the constitution as a living document might argue that because society has changed to recognize that capital punishment is bad nowadays, the text of the 8th Amendment that bans "cruel and unusual punishment" should be reinterpreted as banning capital punishment.

In contrast, someone who does not support the idea of the constitution as a living document might argue that "cruel and unusual punishment" means what the framers said and meant, which did not include capital punishment.

Another point where many are getting off course is that they are concluding that if you think that capital punishment should be banned, it means that you must think that the text of the Constitution should be reinterpreted to cover that, thus making the "living document" theory the only logical one. The argument that the constitution must be a living document because Brown v. Board or Loving v. Virginia enacted good policies suffers from the same logical flaw.

In reality, all of these issues could (and have) been dealt with not by reinterpreting the meaning of the Constitution, but by passing laws. If the death penalty is bad, states or Congress are free to pass laws banning it. From an opponent of the living document theory, this protects the legislature's prerogative to make laws, which is a fundamental part of our constitution's structure.
 
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Come now, we know that in order to interpret the Constitution, you have to ignore the founding fathers who told you that it should be interpreted (like Jefferson and Madison) and only pay attention to the ones who said that it was set in stone (like none of them).

I mean, seriously. What do lawyers and professors who study history and the law more than anyone else in the entire world know, anyway?

According to wikipedia (not the best source, but accessible from work), it looks like there are several possible methods to read the constitution.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_interpretation]Judicial interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
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