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Thread: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

  1. #31
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I agree but for the most part our constitution doesn't deal with social issues at all.
    They are supposed to be freely decided by individuals.
    The Constitution is all about societal issues. How a society is ordered, what the rules of that society are, and how the society operates.



    I understand but one flexibility leads to another and then another.
    Finally you are so far away from an original intent that you might as well had thrown it out in the first place.

    I look to things like Australia and some parts of Europe that supposedly value free speech highly but then they try to censor the internet and what they determine to be hate speech.
    What's next I wonder?
    The Constitution provides a structure. You can't change the structure. The basic meaning of the structure is in tact. However, how that structure is used at a period of time can be interpreted differently to some extent... as long as the structure remains in place. Free speech is the structure.



    True but this has yet to be proven with respect to rights.
    We may be far from our past as far as technology goes but we are not far away from despotic human desires that have plagued the world prior to the creation of the U.S.
    I don't agree completely. Though human psychology hasn't changed much, it's application and societal infrastructure and responses have.

    I keep that in mind and guard what is mine fervently.
    I suppose I am somewhat open to the application of change.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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  2. #32
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Again, this is completely false. The very concept of the concept as a living document didn't even come into existence until around 80 years ago.
    Hahahaha!

    The practice can and does precede the concept. The fact that the Marbury v. Madison ruling exists is proof of the Supreme Court treating the Constitution as a living document all the way back in 1803 even if the term had not yet been conceived. Leave it a right winger to miss the obvious.

  3. #33
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And I, too, stand by my original statement. If the Constitution was narrowly drafted, the document would need to be revised fairly often to reflect societal and technological changes, thus contradicting his statement that they would need to be permanent.
    You're exactly right on the second part, but that's just further proving my point.

    Our constitution protects the right to free speech, not merely the right to say things on the street corner. Thus, speech encompasses phone calls, IMs, and sites like this. Does that mean that "the right to free speech" was reinterpreted over time? No- speech today means what speech meant then; it's the same underlying idea regardless of the method of conveyance.

    The Constitution was broadly drafted because if it had said "the right to say things on the street corner," then it would have had to be amended frequently over time. The idea of simply reinterpreting it to cover modern conceptions of speech was never even an option for Hamilton.

    Hamilton's idea was that the Constitution would be a broadly drafted document that could pertain to most current and future situations with permanence. Broad drafting is the only way his statement makes sense. Considering we have had 220+ years of use out of the document, and society has gone through VAST changes during that time, I'd say the broad interpretation has served us well.
    And again, none of this is in conflict with what I'm saying. The Constitution is drafted broadly because it's a Constitution, not a law. It's not meant to deal with the day to day minutiae of governing, precisely because its language and meanings are inflexible. By drafting it broadly, we allow the legislature to respond to the public's desires.
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Hahahaha!

    The practice can and does precede the concept. The fact that the Marbury v. Madison ruling exists is proof of the Supreme Court treating the Constitution as a living document all the way back in 1803 even if the term had not yet been conceived. Leave it a right winger to miss the obvious.
    And as I tried to explain to you once already, the concept of judicial review is not the same thing as the concept of a living document. Marbury v. Madison had absolutely nothing to do with the idea of the Constitution as a living document. The crux of the decision was Marshall's insistence on adhering to what he believed was the original meaning of the Constitution. Had he been arguing for the Constitution as a living document, he would have been free to assert jurisdiction over the mandamus claim.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 03-07-10 at 06:22 AM.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The Constitution is all about societal issues. How a society is ordered, what the rules of that society are, and how the society operates.
    Yes but as far as specific things go, that is left wide open to individuals.
    You basically don't have to alter the Constitution at all for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The Constitution provides a structure. You can't change the structure. The basic meaning of the structure is in tact. However, how that structure is used at a period of time can be interpreted differently to some extent... as long as the structure remains in place. Free speech is the structure.
    I have to disagree.

    You see the slow erosion of some provisions even though they are clear with intent.

    Free speech zones, firearm bans and registrations.
    None of those things are allowed, yet they exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I don't agree completely. Though human psychology hasn't changed much, it's application and societal infrastructure and responses have.
    Those that have the power use it for themselves and those that don't are merely at their mercy.
    It my not be as flagrant(like killing a crap load of people) but it does happen with regularity.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I suppose I am somewhat open to the application of change.
    I think people view strict constructionists as opposed to change which isn't the case at all.
    The problem is that in the past some Constitutional amendments have produced lousy results(allowing income taxes, Presidential term limits) while others have been pretty decent(13,14,15th amendments).

    With our current groups of legislators (I'm not limiting this to one particular party), I wouldn't want them to touch what is left of the Bill of Rights with a 1000 ft pole.
    They have shown how corrupt and conniving they are.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 03-07-10 at 06:27 AM.
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're exactly right on the second part, but that's just further proving my point.

    Our constitution protects the right to free speech, not merely the right to say things on the street corner. Thus, speech encompasses phone calls, IMs, and sites like this. Does that mean that "the right to free speech" was reinterpreted over time? No- speech today means what speech meant then; it's the same underlying idea regardless of the method of conveyance.

    The Constitution was broadly drafted because if it had said "the right to say things on the street corner," then it would have had to be amended frequently over time. The idea of simply reinterpreting it to cover modern conceptions of speech was never even an option for Hamilton.
    Interesting. We agree, everywhere except the last part of the last sentence. That's why it was broadly drafted... to cover changes in the conceptions of free speech, gun ownership, etc... This is certainly about reinterpretation and expansion because the Constitution was broad. If it was narrow, this would not apply.



    And again, none of this is in conflict with what I'm saying. The Constitution is drafted broadly because it's a Constitution, not a law. It's not meant to deal with the day to day minutiae of governing, precisely because its language and meanings are inflexible. By drafting it broadly, we allow the legislature to respond to the public's desires.
    And yet you changed the language. It was drafted broadly so it's meanings could be flexible in judicial interpretation, so it can applied to modern and future societies. You are talking about creating new laws. I am talking about using the Constitution to deal with new situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #37
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yes but as far as specific things go, that is left wide open to individuals.
    You basically don't have to alter the Constitution at all for that.
    You're right. There is no need to alter the Constitution for societal changes. Whatever is needed is right there.


    I have to disagree.

    You see the slow erosion of some provisions even though they are clear with intent.

    Free speech zones, firearm bans and registrations.
    None of those things are allowed, yet they exist.
    Even Oliver Wendall Holmes knew that free speech wasn't completely unencumbered. Also, you can't privately own a nuclear missile. When society/technology changes, things can be reinterpreted without the need to alter the structure.


    Those that have the power use it for themselves and those that don't are merely at their mercy.
    It my not be as flagrant(like killing a crap load of people) but it does happen with regularity.
    This would happen in any society. It happens a lot less here because of the ability of the Constitution, if used correctly, to curb these abuses.

    I think people view strict constructionists as opposed to change which isn't the case at all.
    I wouldn't say opposed to change. I would just say they view the Constitution differently. It really does go back to the Hamilton vs. Jefferson debate.

    The problem is that in the past some Constitutional amendments have produced lousy results(allowing income taxes, Presidential term limits) while others have been pretty decent(13,14,15th amendments).
    Eh, only Amendment I have a problem with is the 22nd, but that's for another debate.

    With our current groups of legislators (I'm not limiting this to one particular party), I wouldn't want them to touch what is left of the Bill of Rights with a 1000 ft pole.
    They have shown how corrupt and conniving they are.
    I would agree, completely, and that is not my position. Too many checks and balances for that to occur. Just as I think it would be awful to have only strict constructionists on the SCOTUS, I would also hate to see only developmentalists. Same with Congress. Without a good balance of conservatives, liberals, and everything in between we get one voice which does not represent the people of the US.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #38
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Law professor at Berkely.

    I've been there many times. In my experience, the most liberal-oriented university campus in the nation.

    Edit -- Check that. It's beyond liberal. Leftist is more apt.
    Last edited by Tashah; 03-07-10 at 07:31 AM. Reason: added edit

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  9. #39
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Law professor at Berkely.

    I've been there many times. In my experience, the most liberal-oriented university campus in the nation.

    Edit -- Check that. It's beyond liberal. Leftist is more apt.
    It's progressive.
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    There is nothing in the Constitution that gives courts the power of judicial review. The courts gave themselves that power in the case of Marbury v. Madison in 1803.
    Nothing in the constitution about a Presidents cabinet neither.


    The courts usurped more power than the Constitution granted them and without a Constitutional Amendment. Arguably some of the founders wanted the courts to have the power of judicial review, but it was never explicitly outlined in the Constitution. Therefore, the typical Conservative argument is that the Supreme Court has been acting outside its Constitutional authority for over 200 years since the Constitution should be considered a fixed document where alterations should only come from amendments.
    I disagree with that take, the Supreme court has been vital in protecting the spirit of the constitution. I dont see them as acting outside the constitution, I think the Founders envisioned a Court that would protect us from the Tyranny of the Majority. For example the Court should have never allowed prohibition even though it was passed through majority, prohibition was a direct violation of peoples civil rights. As is the legislation against drugs.


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