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Thread: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    And I care why?

    As I have stated, I could care less how the government should ideally be run, I'm more interested in how it is actually run. And the way it has ran since 1803 is as the Constitution being treated as a living document, sometimes intentionally, usually inadvertently, but always as a living document.
    So, since you believe the Constitution has no meaning, why do you care at all?

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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    So, since you believe the Constitution has no meaning, why do you care at all?
    How ludicrous. The Constitution has been around since the late 18th century and it is still going strong. Just because the courts got judicial review thereby inadvertently making the Constitution into a living document in 1803, doesn't mean that the Constitution lost its value. If American history shows us anything, it is that the country has grown stronger as a result. The courts don't always make the right decisions, but they have had a large part in guiding American history. But I guess if you want to ignore the last 200 years, then that is your choice.

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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Come now, we know that in order to interpret the Constitution, you have to ignore the founding fathers who told you that it should be interpreted (like Jefferson and Madison) and only pay attention to the ones who said that it was set in stone (like none of them).

    I mean, seriously. What do lawyers and professors who study history and the law more than anyone else in the entire world know, anyway?
    Care to link me to those statements from Jefferson and Madison that support the living Constitution theory? It's also worth noting that Jefferson is hardly one of the more important figures to focus on in trying to divine the Constitution's meaning.
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    How ludicrous. The Constitution has been around since the late 18th century and it is still going strong.
    Just answer the question. If the words don't mean what they say on the paper, then the paper doesn't have any meaning at all. Since you insist the Constitution has no meaning, why waste time on it at all, it's obviously nothing but a charade for the people seeking power.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Just because the courts got judicial review thereby inadvertently making the Constitution into a living document in 1803, doesn't mean that the Constitution lost its value.
    It has absolutely no value if, via "judicial review", the Congress is now allowed the ability to impose federal public education on the people, when that power simply does not exist in the Constitution as written. Why, if the courts allow the government the power to allocate federal funds for public education without requiring an amendment authorizing it, then the courts will allow the Congress to seize control of the nation's auto industries, it's health care industry, and the banking industry.

    Oh, wait, the only thing on that list Congress hasn't done yet is steal the nation's health care industry, and it's a matter of mere weeks before that happens. Since there is no authorization to be found in the Constitution for any of those things, the purpose served by the Constitution is what, exactly? Since the stated purpose of the Constitution is the protection of individual liberty, and the judicial review process has Progressively destroyed those freedoms, what exactly is the Constitution as a "Living Document" under "judicial review" for? Outside of providing a convenient excuse for people who want to disobey the actually intent of the Constitution and seize/expand their power?

    Hmmmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    If American history shows us anything, it is that the country has grown stronger as a result.
    The government has grown stronger as a result. The nation grew stronger bedcause of the industry and creativity of it's citizens. I fail to see how the nation "grew stronger" as a result of Roe v Wade, Plessy v Ferguson, Dred Scot, United States v Miller.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The courts don't always make the right decisions, but they have had a large part in guiding American history. But I guess if you want to ignore the last 200 years, then that is your choice.
    Yes, if you wish to ignore the damage the courts have done, feel free to keep right on doing as you have been.

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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    so, barrister, exactly what IS the difference between the activist and constructionist judge?

    advertence?

    LOL!

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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Isn't that accomplished by adding new amendments?
    It's not the only way. How we read things change overtime. It really isn't possible for the person reading today to read it just as those who wrote it read it. Nor can we really read minds. So, in essence, things change as we change. There's nothing new or radical in this.

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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Care to link me to those statements from Jefferson and Madison that support the living Constitution theory? It's also worth noting that Jefferson is hardly one of the more important figures to focus on in trying to divine the Constitution's meaning.
    What, again? How many times do I have to repost those quotes? Do your own research, or alternatively, show me where any founding father argued, after making numerous compromises on the writing of the Constitution, that it was written in stone and only had one meaning and that there could never be any interpretation.

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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    What, again? How many times do I have to repost those quotes?
    You've made two posts in this thread, neither of which contains any quotes. Unless you're referring to some other thread, I think you're mistaken.

    Do your own research, or alternatively, show me where any founding father argued, after making numerous compromises on the writing of the Constitution, that it was written in stone and only had one meaning and that there could never be any interpretation.
    Since I never made such a claim and since I understand the difference between "interpretation" and the living document concept that we're discussing, I think I'll pass.
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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Like many in this thread, you're misunderstanding the concept of the Constitution as a "living document."

    Nobody denies that the Constitution can be changed over time as we add or subtract various provisions via the amendment process. That's not what "living document" means.

    The idea of the constitution as a living document is that the existing words and meaning of the constitution change over time to mean different things depending on how society has changed. The simplest example is that although the 8th Amendment's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" very clearly allowed capital punishment when it was drafted, a proponent of the constitution as a living document might argue that because society has changed to recognize that capital punishment is bad nowadays, the text of the 8th Amendment that bans "cruel and unusual punishment" should be reinterpreted as banning capital punishment.

    In contrast, someone who does not support the idea of the constitution as a living document might argue that "cruel and unusual punishment" means what the framers said and meant, which did not include capital punishment.

    Another point where many are getting off course is that they are concluding that if you think that capital punishment should be banned, it means that you must think that the text of the Constitution should be reinterpreted to cover that, thus making the "living document" theory the only logical one. The argument that the constitution must be a living document because Brown v. Board or Loving v. Virginia enacted good policies suffers from the same logical flaw.

    In reality, all of these issues could (and have) been dealt with not by reinterpreting the meaning of the Constitution, but by passing laws. If the death penalty is bad, states or Congress are free to pass laws banning it. From an opponent of the living document theory, this protects the legislature's prerogative to make laws, which is a fundamental part of our constitution's structure.
    thanks. doesn't every challenged law require interpretation of the constitution? and doesn't every amendment at least clarify, if not reinterpret, the constitution?

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Obama 9th Circuit Nominee: Constitution Must Adapt to Changes in the World

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You've made two posts in this thread, neither of which contains any quotes. Unless you're referring to some other thread, I think you're mistaken.
    Yes, I was referring to other threads. This same argument has been going on forever here, it seems. I get tired of it after a while, so forgive me if I don't want to bang my head against the wall again.

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