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Thread: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

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    Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

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    Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report - Times Online

    Quote from article(Using fossil fuel in vehicles is better for the environment than so-called green fuels made from crops, according to a government study seen by The Times.)

    And yet the EU, USA continue pumping Taxpayer money into subsidies for this type of fuel.

    Comments please.

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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report - Times Online

    Quote from article(Using fossil fuel in vehicles is better for the environment than so-called green fuels made from crops, according to a government study seen by The Times.)

    And yet the EU, USA continue pumping Taxpayer money into subsidies for this type of fuel.

    Comments please.
    I've been saying for years that ethanol and the like were a stupid, stupid idea. Fundamental physics problem - you always lose energy in a conversion process. Burning oil to plant and grow crops to convert back into oil... yes, the Sun is an energy input, but solar gathers that energy directly and you still need fertilizers and the physical work of plowing, planting, watering, harvesting, and converting the fuel. It's a net energy loss, and the "cleaner" energy always failed to account for the energy used during production of that "clean" fuel.

    Nuclear energy is the only source that can handle the sheer magnitude of the world's growing energy needs.
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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    In terms of energy wasted, I'm right behind Deuce, using ethanol is hugely inefficient, and plain stupid IMO.

    But at the same time, it does have a lower impact on the environment, because the carbon being released when the ethanol is burned isn't paleocarbon, therefore it isn't increasing the net amount of carbon in the environment, ergo it's not a big deal.

    The problem comes in when you have to burn oil, as Deuce pointed out, to produce the crops, and then you still have to turn them into ethanol after that. If we can find a way to get better/more efficient use of ethanol while decreasing the amount of fossil fuels used to produce them, it might be a good use of our time, but I doubt that, so it seems like a waste to me.
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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report - Times Online

    Quote from article(Using fossil fuel in vehicles is better for the environment than so-called green fuels made from crops, according to a government study seen by The Times.)

    And yet the EU, USA continue pumping Taxpayer money into subsidies for this type of fuel.

    Comments please.
    So if something is considered eco-friendly it's considered "green", even though all the global warming efforts struggle to reduce the gasses which enable photosynthesis

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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report - Times Online

    Quote from article(Using fossil fuel in vehicles is better for the environment than so-called green fuels made from crops, according to a government study seen by The Times.)

    And yet the EU, USA continue pumping Taxpayer money into subsidies for this type of fuel.

    Comments please.

    This is why Obama's administration is transitioning away from the food based ethanol of the past decades:

    DOE

    "Steven Chu, head of the DOE, was equally effusive in praising the interagency biofuel focus. “If you look at the great resources in the United States, certainly agriculture is one of them. We have incredible capacity not only to grow the food we need — along with a dynamic export capability — but we can also grow a considerable (amount) of energy.”

    Obama's directive is totally in line with the need “to transition to a cleaner, sustainable-energy economy and to decrease our dependence on foreign oil.”

    Chu announced $786 million will be invested in the development of advanced biofuels and expansion of commercial biorefineries. The money “is intended (for) several areas. For example, it will (look at plants' integration) of biofuels, bioproducts and heat and power into a system that could prove commercial viability.”

    There will also be “investments in the increase of existing commercial-scale integrated biorefineries that have been awarded in the last two years.”

    Funds will also go to the three U.S. bioenergy research centers. The centers “have already shown great new advances. One example: the centers have already developed yeast and bacteria that, when fed simple sugars, can produce gasoline and diesel-like fuel.

    “We'll also create an ‘algae biofuel consortium’ to accelerate the demonstration of algae (based) biofuels.”

    Chu pointed to an Oak Ridge National Laboratory study that projected one billion tons of agricultural waste and crops “specifically designed for energy could be available and have minimal impact on our food production. If you transfer that billion tons of agricultural material into what we expect in ethanol, that corresponds to something on the order of 100 billion gallons of ethanol. That would go a long way towards wiping out our need to import oil.”
    Major biofuel initiative pushed by Obama administration
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-01-10 at 02:04 AM.
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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So if something is considered eco-friendly it's considered "green", even though all the global warming efforts struggle to reduce the gasses which enable photosynthesis
    That is a misconception. Carbon is necessary for life, as we are all carbon based life forms. The carbon released when ethanol is burned is not harmful to the environment because that carbon is just being moved, and was already in the environment. Carbon being released from fossil fuels such as coal, however, are not part of the environment, or haven't been for a few million years.

    For this reason, and this reason alone, is the carbon released from fossil fuels harmful. It is increasing the net amount of carbon in the environment rather then just shifting the carbon from organisms to the atmosphere. If that was the case, it could easily be shifted back to organisms through photosynthesis.
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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Brazil uses sugar cane which produces more ethanol, but regardless the chemical conversion in an ICE is reduced as percentages of ethanol increase. MPG drops because the energy by volume is less.
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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Link
    Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report - Times Online

    Quote from article(Using fossil fuel in vehicles is better for the environment than so-called green fuels made from crops, according to a government study seen by The Times.)

    And yet the EU, USA continue pumping Taxpayer money into subsidies for this type of fuel.

    Comments please.
    Ethanol is a sop to big agriculture that does more harm in production than it saves in pollution. We should get out of the corn-gasoline business. Ethanol is not a "green" fuel, it's a political payoff to a special interest group.

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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    That is a misconception. Carbon is necessary for life, as we are all carbon based life forms. The carbon released when ethanol is burned is not harmful to the environment because that carbon is just being moved, and was already in the environment. Carbon being released from fossil fuels such as coal, however, are not part of the environment, or haven't been for a few million years.

    For this reason, and this reason alone, is the carbon released from fossil fuels harmful. It is increasing the net amount of carbon in the environment rather then just shifting the carbon from organisms to the atmosphere. If that was the case, it could easily be shifted back to organisms through photosynthesis.
    In 1991 Mount Pinatubo put more pollutants into the air with one belch then did all mankind, ever. 19 years later we're still here and everything is just fine.

    Nature can take care of itself, global warming is bull****.

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    Re: Green fuels cause more harm than fossil fuels, according to report

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    In 1991 Mount Pinatubo put more pollutants into the air with one belch then did all mankind, ever. 19 years later we're still here and everything is just fine.

    Nature can take care of itself, global warming is bull****.
    The idea that ACC will cause dramatic, and sudden effects is bull****, however, the idea is completely sound. Global climate change is occurring, and over the course of a few hundred years, it will change the way the world looks.

    At this point, the process has already started in terms of a positive feedback loop, and there really isn't anything we can do except adapt to the changes as they come.
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