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Thread: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

  1. #41
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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Fox_86 View Post
    Again and again it has been brought up that private companies don't have the budget or brain power necessary for space. So you fail.
    You know why? Because it isn't profitable. Know why? Because it uses up more resources than we gain from it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You know why? Because it isn't profitable. Know why? Because it uses up more resources than we gain from it.
    This is totally untrue. The technological and strategic benefits from space exploration are immense, and the potential gains from space exploitation are virtually unlimited. I can't believe people actually think the space program at NASA is useless. That has to be the most anti-American (and inaccurate) sentiment I've heard in a while. The United States must be on the forefront of space exploration. We cannot allow the Russians and the Chinese to gain the edge in that regard. It may not matter to you in the short term, but in the long run it's absolutely essential to the security and prosperity of our country. How do you think Americans will fair a hundred years from now when Russia launches the first battle-cruiser into space? Do you honestly think that space won't be weaponized and colonized?
    Last edited by Ethereal; 02-27-10 at 04:15 PM.

  3. #43
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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    This totally untrue. The technological and strategic benefits from space exploration are immense, and the potential gains from space exploitation are virtually unlimited.
    We pour in how much and get how much back? Any rough estimates or is this just your gut feeling?

    I can't believe people actually think the space program at NASA is useless.
    I never said useless. I just said unprofitable.

    That has to be the most anti-American (and inaccurate) sentiment I've heard in a while. The United States must be on the forefront of space exploration. We cannot allow the Russians and the Chinese to gain the edge in that regard. It may not matter to you in the short term, but in the long run it's absolutely essential to the security and prosperity of our country. How do you think Americans will fair a hundred years from now when Russia launches the first battle-cruiser into space? Do you honestly think that space won't be weaponized and colonized?
    We don't have a strategic missle defense shield? No unmanned space missions? I'm just telling you that we don't need manned space missions for security. We have satellites, SAMs, and other defenses. Do we really need men in space for protection? Are we going to have a Moonraker style fight in space in the next 10 years? 25? 50?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    In case you weren't aware of the fact, the U.S. military maintains a presence in outer space via the Air Force Space Command located at Vandenberg Air Force Base. . . and, no, national defense doesn't require people to actually be in outer space. National defense is being maintained through unmanned space missions. If you believe that manned missions are needed (without help from other nations) in order to maintain national defense, then please explain why.
    Because robots won't be mining the mineral resources on the moon, or defending them, and Americans won't be on THEIR moon if your Messiah is allowed kill Constellation and Ares.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution says, "The Congress shall have Power To . . . establish Post Offices and post Roads."

    The phrase "post Roads" doesn't mean "the road to the future". The phrase means that Congress has to power to establish physical roads to be used to deliver mail.
    Right.

    The physical road to space involves advanced rocketry.

    But...if we want to take your interpretation, then it means "doing the research to build monocrystalline diamond cables to support equatorial elevator to a geosynchronous space station." Which means we STILL need Ares and Constellation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    Oh? Why is that? Your evidence to support your claim is . . . ???
    If you are going to claim that Americans need to return to the Moon, then please explain why.
    1) While the Messiah-killed Air Borne Laser Test Bed worked FLAWLESSLY and would be, if it hadn't been killed, a reliable theatre defense system, no current or projected ABM system is capable of defending against a stealthed nuclear warhead launched electrically from the moon and entering atmosphere at 12 kilometers per second.

    The Messiah does not like a defended America, anyway.

    2) Germany and Italy, in 1900, had spend 0 years of the previous three hundred developing 0 colonies overseas. Neither nation is a significant player in the global marketplace now. The other European nation', notably France, Spain, and Britain, dominated the world political scene for those three centuries. Since there are no moon people, there no moral issues with seizing moon resources and exploiting them. If the US does not work to get it's share, the US will cease to be relevant, and that will happen in the near future.

    3) China in the 1400's had ships capable of crossing the Pacific and exploring California. The short sighted policies of your Messiah were first employed by the Emperor of China who refused such expeditions. China remained an economic and cultural and scientific backwater while Europe rose to global ascendancy. China is not repeated the failed mistakes of it's past, your Messiah should not be allowed to repeat the failed mistakes of China's past, either.

    4) Confuscius say "he who hold all the cards wins the game". If the Messiah is successful in his order to kill the US manned space program, the United States will no longer have cards in the game.

    5) Explain why the Battle of Bunker Hill was tactically important, why the Redcoats were willing to spend so many lives to get the patriots off that hill.

    6) Why were old European castles routinely built on high nearly inaccessible mountain peaks?

  5. #45
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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Hmmm....so space exploration is "useless"? Has no relation to national defense or commercial success?
    Space exploration can be done with unmanned probes. The only defense or commercial interests are related to satellites, which can be done by unmanned rockets.
    The ideas of a manned site on the moon, and/or a manned trip to mars (most likely TO, and not back again), are stupidly expensive. Let China have it....let them deplete their coffers. Their people are already accustomed to having little to nothing.
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  6. #46
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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    This is totally untrue. The technological and strategic benefits from space exploration are immense, and the potential gains from space exploitation are virtually unlimited. I can't believe people actually think the space program at NASA is useless. That has to be the most anti-American (and inaccurate) sentiment I've heard in a while. The United States must be on the forefront of space exploration. We cannot allow the Russians and the Chinese to gain the edge in that regard. It may not matter to you in the short term, but in the long run it's absolutely essential to the security and prosperity of our country. How do you think Americans will fair a hundred years from now when Russia launches the first battle-cruiser into space? Do you honestly think that space won't be weaponized and colonized?
    Man, you watch way too much science fiction on TV.....
    Oracle of Utah
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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    The first question to be considered is this one:

    Is Uncle Sam supposed to give money to NASA in order to prepare Mankind to escape a far-distant-future calamity, or is Uncle Sam supposed to give money to NASA just to prevent civilians from becoming unemployed?
    No. The federal government has a constitutional duty to defend the nation and that means manned space program.

    The federal government has the Constitutional authority to build roads where none existed before. Which means a manned space program.

    And by "manned program" I mean a well thought out program of incremental improvements with the goal of identifying and then exploiting solar system resources for the commercial success of and military defense of the United States.

    Killing the manned space program is doing exactly the wrong thing.

    Which is what we expect of the Messiah.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    Second question:

    If a cheaper and better way to produce manned space flights were to be found, and if that way were to result in the elimination of some government jobs, then would you support the cheaper and better way knowing that some people on the government payroll would lose their jobs?
    If pigs had wings would they be kosher?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyboy View Post
    Third question:

    If a cheaper and better way to produce manned space flights were to be found, and if that way were to result in manned space flight taking place somewhere other than in Florida, then would you support the cheaper and better way knowing that it would result in jobs leaving Florida?
    Irrelevant. Fact of the matter is that Floriduh!, like it or not, is currently where our civillian launch assets are invested. If it makes financial sense to move or abandon those facilities in favor of some other to expedite space access, then that should happen.

    Since we're discussing the complete abandonment of US manned space activity, and not any form of relocation, your question is again irrelevant.

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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You know why? Because it isn't profitable. Know why? Because it uses up more resources than we gain from it.
    You're referring to some other agency than NASA, right, because you know that NASA is the only government agency that returned to the economy roughly seven dollars in spinoff technology for each dollar of taxpayer funding in it's budget. So what agency are you discussing?

    I'm certainly in favor of eliminating programs that cost more than they produce, like Socialist Security, federal farm subsidies, ethanol subsidies, the EPA, welfare, etc, etc, etc. Especially the unconstitutonal ones, which are all those listed plus the etc, etc etc.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 02-27-10 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You're referring to some other agency than NASA, right, because you know that NASA is the only government agency that returned to the economy roughly seven dollars in spinoff technology for each dollar of taxpayer funding in it's budget. So what agency are you discussing?

    I'm certainly in favor of eliminating programs that cost more than they produce, like Socialist Security, federal farm subsidies, ethanol subsidies, the EPA, welfare, etc, etc, etc. Especially the unconstitutonal ones, which are all those listed plus the etc, etc etc.
    according to the PR branch of NASA, no doubt....
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    Re: 23,000 now expected to lose jobs after shuttle retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    We pour in how much and get how much back? Any rough estimates or is this just your gut feeling?
    It'll take a while to load but is well worth the wait. Keep in mind, this doesn't account for strategic advantages.

    http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/Spinoff2...pinoff2009.pdf

    I never said useless. I just said unprofitable.
    Just because something is unprofitable doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

    We don't have a strategic missle defense shield? No unmanned space missions? I'm just telling you that we don't need manned space missions for security. We have satellites, SAMs, and other defenses. Do we really need men in space for protection? Are we going to have a Moonraker style fight in space in the next 10 years? 25? 50?
    It's kind of hard to conduct basic research without humans. It's also hard to repair and maintain complex instruments without them. Man must be apart of the exploration process. Machines cannot fill that void. Personally, I think we should give space 100% and that includes humans. If we could cut entitlement spending, we'd have more than enough to fund continued space exploration.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 02-27-10 at 04:47 PM.

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