Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra
Surely the point isn't about people objecting to pledging allegiance but to it being compulsory.
If you'll have read my first post in this thread, you'll see that I think the teachers actions are abhorrent and people should definitely be free not to say the pledge. I'm not arguing for compulsory in the previous post you quoted. What I am arguing is that by some notion it is wrong or 100% unneeded to CHOOSE to say the pledge.
You say that people don't informally renew their devotion to country much. As a non-US citizen it appears to me, if this forum is anything to go by, that people do it all the time. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
In general you're getting a very skewed segment of the population by looking at a political forum. In general matters of the nation, national pride, and other such things jump to the forefront during political issues. Not to mention it is a political tool that BOTH sides used so often you see relatively hollow gestures of it from either side coming out here. This would be akin to going to a secessionist movement website or a radical environmentalist website and seeing severe criticisms and hatred for the country and many of its policies. Or, for a non-political thing, you’d assume that many people in the country care about Anime if you spent a lot of time on a roleplaying website, because there’s a lot of crossover into the fandom and thus you see it a lot there despite it not really being true in the general population.
That’s not to say people don’t renew their devotion to their country at all. But if you’re going to compare it to a relationship and your wedding vows as aps did its not really on par unless you’re just a marriage that rarely gets emotional. I’m not married yet but I can’t think of a week (and at times a day) where I haven’t expressed through words my love for my girlfriend in some way, either by flat out saying it, calling her love, or something of the sort. This to me is the reaffirmation of your commitment, your vows, your devotion to them. We don’t normally say “we love this country” on a weekly basis.
Mind you, I’m not saying we SHOULD, I’m just saying that there’s a lot of issues with comparing the two.
You can't win any argument by calling on tradition. Tradition is morally neutral; there are good and bad traditions and traditons of both kinds survive.
You can’t win arguments based solely on tradition, but you also can’t completely remove traditions from culture. Now, you can argue that the culture in particular is BAD, but that’s a different argument. I was simply making the case for WHY the traditions of the pledge, the flag, the national anthem, etc are useful not just for this country but for all companies by comparing it to other groupings that use the same theory….that traditions performed by groups of people who have nothing else alike can give a sense of belonging and community as it provides upon them common ground.
Freedom of speech is not just a tradition in the US, it's a glorious, praise-worthy fundament of your society. Does freedom of speech dictate that you have the freedom NOT to speak something you don't wish to as well?
Absolutely not, which is not what I was arguing. Again, read my first post in this thread. My argument in the second post was more in line with the sentiment present here and elsewhere (more so that for the latter):
1) That it was like a wedding vow
2) That it is somehow bad or ignorant or childish to participate in such things, or that someone is more enlightened or better for NOT participating
Do the people who rail against the stating of the Pledge or the National Anthem because its mindless nationalism also rail against, say, Tennesse fans who sing and know every word to “Rocky Top” because its mindlessly endorsing a school whose over time taken land from people to build up its over abundance of buildings, cut numerous good employees so their university president could have a higher pay check, and had a history of discrimination in its hiring and acceptance policies (not saying those are true, just making this a hypothetical).
To me, they’re both serving in general the same purpose. They give a community a connection, a bond, a sense of kinship because despite all your differences you know that you’ve both have that in common and that, if at no other point, during that moment you all are the same despite all your differences.
Some people think such a notion makes people “sheeple”, it a bad thing, is something to be condemned. Personally, I find
most people that expunge that are pseudo-intellectuals that like to believe they’re smarter than everyone else and other notions of the similar sort. Personally, I think a bit of community identification and culture through shared experiences can actually be a powerful thing, and that while yes it can be used for the wrong reasons, at its core I believe it’s a beneficial and powerful action that is used in everything from something as large as our Country to as simple as a few kids club in their backyard that has a super special secret handshake.