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Thread: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    I think if someone wants to be an anti-American/unpatriotic then that is there choice, they should not be escorted/kicked out of class for it.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 02-25-10 at 11:45 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Surely the point isn't about people objecting to pledging allegiance but to it being compulsory.
    If you'll have read my first post in this thread, you'll see that I think the teachers actions are abhorrent and people should definitely be free not to say the pledge. I'm not arguing for compulsory in the previous post you quoted. What I am arguing is that by some notion it is wrong or 100% unneeded to CHOOSE to say the pledge.

    You say that people don't informally renew their devotion to country much. As a non-US citizen it appears to me, if this forum is anything to go by, that people do it all the time. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
    In general you're getting a very skewed segment of the population by looking at a political forum. In general matters of the nation, national pride, and other such things jump to the forefront during political issues. Not to mention it is a political tool that BOTH sides used so often you see relatively hollow gestures of it from either side coming out here. This would be akin to going to a secessionist movement website or a radical environmentalist website and seeing severe criticisms and hatred for the country and many of its policies. Or, for a non-political thing, you’d assume that many people in the country care about Anime if you spent a lot of time on a roleplaying website, because there’s a lot of crossover into the fandom and thus you see it a lot there despite it not really being true in the general population.

    That’s not to say people don’t renew their devotion to their country at all. But if you’re going to compare it to a relationship and your wedding vows as aps did its not really on par unless you’re just a marriage that rarely gets emotional. I’m not married yet but I can’t think of a week (and at times a day) where I haven’t expressed through words my love for my girlfriend in some way, either by flat out saying it, calling her love, or something of the sort. This to me is the reaffirmation of your commitment, your vows, your devotion to them. We don’t normally say “we love this country” on a weekly basis.

    Mind you, I’m not saying we SHOULD, I’m just saying that there’s a lot of issues with comparing the two.

    You can't win any argument by calling on tradition. Tradition is morally neutral; there are good and bad traditions and traditons of both kinds survive.
    You can’t win arguments based solely on tradition, but you also can’t completely remove traditions from culture. Now, you can argue that the culture in particular is BAD, but that’s a different argument. I was simply making the case for WHY the traditions of the pledge, the flag, the national anthem, etc are useful not just for this country but for all companies by comparing it to other groupings that use the same theory….that traditions performed by groups of people who have nothing else alike can give a sense of belonging and community as it provides upon them common ground.

    Freedom of speech is not just a tradition in the US, it's a glorious, praise-worthy fundament of your society. Does freedom of speech dictate that you have the freedom NOT to speak something you don't wish to as well?
    Absolutely not, which is not what I was arguing. Again, read my first post in this thread. My argument in the second post was more in line with the sentiment present here and elsewhere (more so that for the latter):

    1) That it was like a wedding vow
    2) That it is somehow bad or ignorant or childish to participate in such things, or that someone is more enlightened or better for NOT participating

    Do the people who rail against the stating of the Pledge or the National Anthem because its mindless nationalism also rail against, say, Tennesse fans who sing and know every word to “Rocky Top” because its mindlessly endorsing a school whose over time taken land from people to build up its over abundance of buildings, cut numerous good employees so their university president could have a higher pay check, and had a history of discrimination in its hiring and acceptance policies (not saying those are true, just making this a hypothetical).

    To me, they’re both serving in general the same purpose. They give a community a connection, a bond, a sense of kinship because despite all your differences you know that you’ve both have that in common and that, if at no other point, during that moment you all are the same despite all your differences.

    Some people think such a notion makes people “sheeple”, it a bad thing, is something to be condemned. Personally, I find most people that expunge that are pseudo-intellectuals that like to believe they’re smarter than everyone else and other notions of the similar sort. Personally, I think a bit of community identification and culture through shared experiences can actually be a powerful thing, and that while yes it can be used for the wrong reasons, at its core I believe it’s a beneficial and powerful action that is used in everything from something as large as our Country to as simple as a few kids club in their backyard that has a super special secret handshake.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think if someone wants to be an anti-American/unpatriotic then that is there choice, they should not be escorted/kicked out of class for it.
    Some people put their religion above everything else. It has nothing to do with patriotism or love of country.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    I never understood the act of pledging. I mean, whats the point anyway?

    BTW that is a legitimate question. Is it to do with having a large first generation immigrant population?
    And if so, whats the point of repeating the pledge again and again.......
    The purpose is to instill a sense of loyalty to American values and the country.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by USA-1 View Post
    Some people put their religion above everything else. It has nothing to do with patriotism or love of country.
    I think many people just use their religion as a shield especially during times of war to weasel out of military service just like some of the jews in Israel do. So I think these people are just using their religion to be anti-American/unpatriotic.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 02-25-10 at 11:58 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Contrary to good old common sense. Damn, a police escort out of the room. You know most school police are real police officers? I wonder if he pulled his gun.
    Not he...they...TWO police officers. You would think that between the teacher, the principals office and the call to the two cops, of that group of at LEAST 4 people at least ONE of them would have used their brain...used their head for more than just a conveeeeenient place to hang their hat...

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think many people just use their religion as a shield especially during times of war to weasel out of military service just like some of the jews in Israel do. So I think these people are just using their religion to be anti-American/unpatriotic.
    Do you honestly believe that repeating some words that someone else wrote every day makes that person more patriotic?

    Religion isn't the only thing people use to weasel out of military duty.

    You do know that Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist
    Last edited by USA_1; 02-25-10 at 12:08 PM.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    The kid shoulda got an asswhipping instead. I think that would have been more effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The kid shoulda got an asswhipping instead. I think that would have been more effective.
    That's how they would have handled it in Nazi Germany.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    What we need here is respect , on both sides.
    Discipline, for all, again.
    The parents must teach the child how to act in public; evidently, this was not done.
    The teacher must be taught how to handle situations; evidently this has not been done.
    Everyone is wrong!
    All attitudes must improve.
    Extremeism seems to be the rule of the day.
    Even from me, as what began as a mole hill is now a mountain.
    This silliness angers me.

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