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Thread: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

  1. #111
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Not everyone is a Redskins fan.

    Similarly not everyone experiences a country the same way.
    You're twisting the analogy.

    Every citizen of the country is a citizen of this country, just as every redskins fan is a redskins fan.

    Some redskins fans may be die hard homers. Some may think the team never makes a good decision. Some redskins fans may be poor. Some redksins fans may be rich. Some may've grew up loving them. Some may've just switched to the team. Some may hate Dallas, some may hate all other teams, and some may not have a care about anyone else. Some may be black. Some may be white. Some may be old. Some may be young.

    But one thing they generally all share (there's always some in any group that generally detach from the norm) would be that fight song. Its something that would combine all, even for a short time.

    Similarly. Some citizens could think the US could do no wrong. Some could think we make a TON of mistakes. Some could be rich, some poor. Some democrat, some republican. Some black, some white. Some who can't stand the middle east, others that dislike all foriegners, and others who have great respect for foriegn countries. But one thing they'd all generally share would be the country they are citizens of, and the traditions of said country such as the pledge, the anthem, etc.

    That's pretty scary to me.
    Which doesn't surprise me and its going to just be a difference we're going to have. You are generally paranoid. You are the very definition of a hyper intellectual that thinks he's "Better" than everyone else and so much "smarter" than everyone else to be above such notions as believing perhaps that ones country is generally a good thing, or being proud of ones country, or being happy to be a member of said country other than on a simply rational level because to do so is to be mindless or foolish or in your mind seemingly unable to also be rational about it.

    It is much, in my mind, to the love one has for a sibling or a lover. No human is perfect, yet we love these people all the same. We learn to love your mother, your father, your siblings from the time you grow up. You love them if they've messed up in their lives and done drugs, or if they cheated on a test, or if they were a bully when they were younger, and on and on. Does that necessarily mean you ignore their faults? That you don't try to fix their faults? That you don't learn from those mistakes? That you don't hold them accountable? No, it doesn't. It does mean you love them though and when push comes to shove, they are your family.

    Personally, I view the country in a similar if albiet slightly more detached way. You think that's a bad thing, that we're foolish or scary for daring to have that kind of notion. To actually think this is a good country, to love this country, and to believe its a good thing for a child to feel as well as they're growing up. I don't, and in part because of the very ability that you have the chance to make your claims and say such a notion is scary.

    I don't think its even unpatriotic for you to say its scary. I just think its rather sad and founded far more in your own belief that you're smarter than everyone else.

  2. #112
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It is precisely because people might choose different ways to express their love for this country, because they're individuals, that I never, ever claimed that refusal to recite meant you don't belong.

    There's a difference between declining to express in a certain way, and claiming that a certain way is invalid.

    You are arguing that reciting the pledge is an invalid way of expressing patriotism because it's generic. You are making a claim not about your preference, but about the pledge.

    As a civilian you might not proffer to salute the flag, and that's fine. That's your choice. Declining to salute does not mean you're unAmerican. However, when you go further than your choice and claim the flag means nothing, not nothing **to you**, but nothing period, that is in fact unAmerican.

    Options can be valid even if you don't proffer them.
    I was referring to myself. Obviously these symbols mean something to some people. To say that isn't unAmerican to make a broad statement that these things are meaningless to everyone, it's just stupid and incorrect. I'm more introverted and the way I feel about something has more currency to me than a colored piece of cloth or some words to recite. I'm speaking for myself here. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    I never understood the act of pledging. I mean, whats the point anyway?
    Originally it was to sell American flags.

    Now it's indoctrination.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    To me it's analogous to people who believe in God, but choose not to pray or go to church.
    Ah, good choice. This'll make a great example

    Just because these people don't pray or go to church does it somehow mean that they love God less?
    Depends.

    Why are they not going to church and praying?

    Are they doing it because Sunday is football day and they're not missing the big game for church?

    Do they do it because "church is boring"?

    Do they do it because the beds warm and they don't want to get out?

    Do they not bother to bless their meals simply because they feel its inconvient?

    Personally, yeah...I'd say if those are you reasons for not goign to church and praying you probably are less devout, ie love god less. You're basically putting your comfort and convience above what you believe through your religion is your duty as a follower of that religion.

    Now instead if ...

    they do it because they feel that the only church in town feels more like a social club than a worshipping service, so you stay home and read the bible.

    they do it because they feel organized religion has contorted the true meaning of the scripture

    they do it because they feel that the interpritation of worship in the bible actually allows for a more personal form of worship, and so they choose to stay home instead

    Then i'd probably say no, that doesn't make them less devout imho.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    I was referring to myself. Obviously these symbols mean something to some people. To say that isn't unAmerican to make a broad statement that these things are meaningless to everyone, it's just stupid and incorrect. I'm more introverted and the way I feel about something has more currency to me than a colored piece of cloth or some words to recite. I'm speaking for myself here. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone.
    That's exactly why that teacher was way out of line.

    To agree with previous points, forcing someone to recite the pledge takes all the meaning out of it.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Ah, good choice. This'll make a great example



    Depends.

    Why are they not going to church and praying?
    Who knows what their reasons are? Some people don't like group participation. Some people don't feel that any particular church expresses their views accurately. While there are plenty of denominations out there, there are hardly enough to cater to how complex people are.

    Are they doing it because Sunday is football day and they're not missing the big game for church?
    Well, obviously God hates football.

    Do they do it because "church is boring"?
    Some do find it boring. Then again, the church isn't God.

    Do they do it because the beds warm and they don't want to get out?
    Again, the church isn't God.

    Do they not bother to bless their meals simply because they feel its inconvient?
    While some do find it inconvenient, it doesn't necessarily mean that they love God less. Some don't feel the need to express out loud, their love for God. Some people are introverts.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by USA-1 View Post
    That's how they would have handled it in Nazi Germany.
    Actually, it isn't, but I know history isn't a strong point of the Left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Schools should not force people to say it. Its ridiculous and takes the meaning out of it and is counter to free speech.

    Parents I don't think should, but they should be free to if they want. Just as they should be free to tell their kids not to because of other reasons even if the kid wants to. Parents are in charge of installing principles and values into their children and if they think its important for them to say, or not say, I don't think that should be our business.

    I think its perfectly fine, and good, that in general the schools have kids say the pledge at the beginning of the day.

    I don't think its unpatriotic to not say the pledge, but I do think that the vast majority of reasons people don't say it is not a patriotic act. Note, not patriotic does not = unpatriotic. Think of it like saying someone isn't elated. Saying their not elated doesn't mean they're depressed. Not being patriotic does not necessarily make one the opposite, unpatriotic.

    I generally think its idiotic and ignorant to insult people for participating in a benign and long standing act that is part of the cultural tradition of this country.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, it isn't, but I know history isn't a strong point of the Left.
    Kind of like how staying on topic and avoiding lame partisan hack insults isn't your strongest point?

  10. #120
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You're twisting the analogy.

    Every citizen of the country is a citizen of this country, just as every redskins fan is a redskins fan.

    Some redskins fans may be die hard homers. Some may think the team never makes a good decision. Some redskins fans may be poor. Some redksins fans may be rich. Some may've grew up loving them. Some may've just switched to the team. Some may hate Dallas, some may hate all other teams, and some may not have a care about anyone else. Some may be black. Some may be white. Some may be old. Some may be young.

    But one thing they generally all share (there's always some in any group that generally detach from the norm) would be that fight song. Its something that would combine all, even for a short time.

    Similarly. Some citizens could think the US could do no wrong. Some could think we make a TON of mistakes. Some could be rich, some poor. Some democrat, some republican. Some black, some white. Some who can't stand the middle east, others that dislike all foriegners, and others who have great respect for foriegn countries. But one thing they'd all generally share would be the country they are citizens of, and the traditions of said country such as the pledge, the anthem, etc.
    I have to disagree with this because you become a fan and aren't born into being a fan.
    I view countries as what they are, temporary constructs.
    Countries come and go, people that you actually make connections with is all that matters.

    I will not make connections with 300 million people, that isn't going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Which doesn't surprise me and its going to just be a difference we're going to have. You are generally paranoid. You are the very definition of a hyper intellectual that thinks he's "Better" than everyone else and so much "smarter" than everyone else to be above such notions as believing perhaps that ones country is generally a good thing, or being proud of ones country, or being happy to be a member of said country other than on a simply rational level because to do so is to be mindless or foolish or in your mind seemingly unable to also be rational about it.
    Labeling people paranoid when they have thousands of years of history to back of their arguments does not make for good arguments.

    I do not feel better than anyone else in some ways and do in others.
    I have weaknesses that I'm perfectly comfortable admitting to others.
    I smoke and can't kick the habit because I am weak in that regard.

    I find it foolish to cling to things that are not real.
    Americans are not a uniform people, we all exist in different ways.
    We all have different beliefs that do not conform to the founding vision of the country.
    A pledge does not change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It is much, in my mind, to the love one has for a sibling or a lover. No human is perfect, yet we love these people all the same. We learn to love your mother, your father, your siblings from the time you grow up. You love them if they've messed up in their lives and done drugs, or if they cheated on a test, or if they were a bully when they were younger, and on and on. Does that necessarily mean you ignore their faults? That you don't try to fix their faults? That you don't learn from those mistakes? That you don't hold them accountable? No, it doesn't. It does mean you love them though and when push comes to shove, they are your family.
    If they don't do anything to fix themselves and become a potential danger to you.
    It's not wise to stay around them anymore.
    That is my experience with extended family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Personally, I view the country in a similar if albiet slightly more detached way. You think that's a bad thing, that we're foolish or scary for daring to have that kind of notion. To actually think this is a good country, to love this country, and to believe its a good thing for a child to feel as well as they're growing up. I don't, and in part because of the very ability that you have the chance to make your claims and say such a notion is scary.

    I don't think its even unpatriotic for you to say its scary. I just think its rather sad and founded far more in your own belief that you're smarter than everyone else.
    I value things that are real to me.
    My wife and kids are real, America is just a place.

    I mean how can I have a good relationship with my country when the majority of it's inhabitants ridicule my beliefs at every turn.
    A lot of people are like this.
    Marginalized and detached because they are different, not necessarily bad.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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