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Thread: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

  1. #101
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Keep an eye, I still have time left to edit further. Everyone knows about the 25 minute rule and there are time stamps, so it's fair game.
    Well you know exactly what I was responding to.

    The pledge is an artificial construct created to push nationalism.
    Anyone who has any personal belief to not recite any empty pledge, does not make that person less a part of their people.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Not because you disagree and do not recite, but because you think the words are generic; that's correct, you don't belong in this country. Perhaps Iran would be more to your liking.
    Yeah, they are generic because not everyone expresses their patriotism in that way. We are individuals. Those words are not that all encompassing that they describe how all of us express our patriotism. This is especially true with the "under God" part. And don't pull that "Perhaps you'd like it better somewhere else," bs. I couldn't give a rat's ass how you define as patriotism or whether you think I'm anti-American or not. The fact is that I know that I love this country. Because I choose to do it in a different way than you doesn't make me any less patriotic.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    I think I do.

    Say you have a secret handshake because you're associated with a club. By doing the secret handshake with fellow club members, you're showing your loyalty to the club and it's a unifying experience.

    He is saying that by saying the Pledge, you are unifying with those who are saying it with you.

    Am I right Zyph?
    Essentially, yep.

    I see two reasons for the Pledge.

    First is the sharing of a common experience amongst all citizens (or well most citizens). A common bond. Just like I can walk into any Redskins bar...whether its in California, DC, or even Dallas...and likely hear, and participate in, Hail to the Redskins after a score (as rare as that is ) and instantly feel somewhat at home, familiar, and connected. Likewise, a kid could go from one school and another and if nothing else feel that slight bit of normality by the commonality of standing up, putting his hand on his heart, and saying those words with all the other children.

    The second is to instill at a young age a love for this country. I know, I know, some people dislike this and thinks its wrong. Personally, I do not. Some say that the pledge doesn't give any reasons. I disagree, it gives two basic ones...that this country stands for Liberty and Justice for all. Its basic, its simple, its not nuanced, but its a start. This doesn't mean that kids are going to be brainwashed to think that America does everything right. Doesn't mean kids are going to be brain washed that America can do no wrong. What it does probably mean is kids learn at a young age they are expected to be loyal to the country and the principles that it stands for...which as citizens I do not think is a horrible thing. There is a difference between patriotism and patriotism that goes so far that it becomes mindlessly extreme.

    Throughout all paths of life there are commonalities done in groups to do those two things...to give members of the group a shared experience and to inspire pride/devotion/love/respect for the group. I don't see why somehow its horrible when its the country that its for but okay for everything else.

    Hell...what is the wedding ring on a persons finger for but an antiquaited symbol publicly displaying ones devotion for another.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Depends on your definition of "force" I suppose.
    I use the same definition everyone else who speaks this language is supposed to use, so I don't see room for misinterpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Some here have suggested that the kid get patriotism whipped into him, or that it is right that the kid be "educated" or punished in some other way.
    I've claimed on this thread that the student should say it, but that doesn't = force. I think students should recite the pledge, that doesn't mean they have to.

  5. #105
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I use the same definition everyone else who speaks this language is supposed to use, so I don't see room for misinterpretation.

    I've claimed on this thread that the student should say it, but that doesn't = force. I think students should recite the pledge, that doesn't mean they have to.
    I agree. That's not force.

    What made you think I was specifically talking about you?

  6. #106
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    I should have clarified. Obviously, it depends on the person's reasons for not saying it. If they aren't saying it because they hate this country then they obviously don't give a rat's ass or recognize the fact that they are able to do so because of our freedoms in this country.
    And I dare say that the majority of people that do not do the pledge….especially in regards to school age kids…are doing it for reasons that have NOTHING to do with demonstrating the freedoms this country gives them.

    Which is precisely why I fail to see how choosing not to recite some words somehow makes one unpatriotic or less patriotic than those who choose to say those words.
    I agree with you about being unpatriotic. I don’t agree with you about being LESS patriotic. If someone is not saying it for reasons that have nothing to do with showing love, devotion, or respect for ones country and the person saying it is doing it for those reasons, that other person is showing less patriotism in that act then that person. Why? Because in one case someone IS showing patriotism and in the other someone isn’t showing any patriotism. Not showing Patriotism is not the same as being unpatriotic. And Some is greater than None, therefore one is being at that moment LESS patriotic. Does that make them less patriotic overall? No. But in that act they are.

    Personally, I find the words to be generic. You can recite them all day long, but if you don't actually feel what you are saying or find it boring and archaic, it doesn't really matter whether you say them or not, does it?
    To the first part, yes, you’re right, no real reason to say it. I’d wonder furtively though what about the notion of pledging your support for your country and for the principles of Liberty and Justice for all is something that you don’t actually feel. As to the second part, not really. What exactly is archaic about supporting ones country? What is archaic about the notions of Liberty and Justice for all? Just because the worlds are old doesn’t make them bad. I don’t see you arguing that the constitution should be ignored because it’s old. And in regards to the boring part…sorry, there is NOTHING patriotic at all about not saying something that is a national tradition because “its boring”. That’s not patriotic, that’s lazy. That’s no different to me than someone trying to defend why they didn’t want to stand and take off their hat during the National Anthem because “they were comfy sitting down”. Does it make them unpatriotic overall? No, but I think it is an unpatriotic act to have such little respect for your countries tradition to not stand up “Cause you’re country” and I think it’s a rather unpatriotic act if you don’t recite the pledge for no other reason than “its boring”.

  7. #107
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I see two reasons for the Pledge.

    First is the sharing of a common experience amongst all citizens (or well most citizens). A common bond. Just like I can walk into any Redskins bar...whether its in California, DC, or even Dallas...and likely hear, and participate in, Hail to the Redskins after a score (as rare as that is ) and instantly feel somewhat at home, familiar, and connected. Likewise, a kid could go from one school and another and if nothing else feel that slight bit of normality by the commonality of standing up, putting his hand on his heart, and saying those words with all the other children.
    Not everyone is a Redskins fan.

    Similarly not everyone experiences a country the same way.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The second is to instill at a young age a love for this country. I know, I know, some people dislike this and thinks its wrong. Personally, I do not. Some say that the pledge doesn't give any reasons. I disagree, it gives two basic ones...that this country stands for Liberty and Justice for all. Its basic, its simple, its not nuanced, but its a start. This doesn't mean that kids are going to be brainwashed to think that America does everything right. Doesn't mean kids are going to be brain washed that America can do no wrong. What it does probably mean is kids learn at a young age they are expected to be loyal to the country and the principles that it stands for...which as citizens I do not think is a horrible thing. There is a difference between patriotism and patriotism that goes so far that it becomes mindlessly extreme.

    Throughout all paths of life there are commonalities done in groups to do those two things...to give members of the group a shared experience and to inspire pride/devotion/love/respect for the group. I don't see why somehow its horrible when its the country that its for but okay for everything else.
    That's pretty scary to me.

    Pushing children to show devotion and love for a country they may not exist in the future.
    Not to mention that a great many people have subjective definitions of Liberty and Justice, that no pledge could house under one roof.
    Devotion and Loyalty are not good things in combination when your country can turn tyrannical.

    I'm sorry but I feel no commonality with people I have never and probably will never meet and experience life with.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Hell...what is the wedding ring on a persons finger for but an antiquaited symbol publicly displaying ones devotion for another.
    You have a commonality with this person because you have an intimate relationship with them.
    The same can not be said for a whole nation.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #108
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Yeah, they are generic because not everyone expresses their patriotism in that way.
    It is precisely because people might choose different ways to express their love for this country, because they're individuals, that I never, ever claimed that refusal to recite meant you don't belong.

    There's a difference between declining to express in a certain way, and claiming that a certain way is invalid.

    You are arguing that reciting the pledge is an invalid way of expressing patriotism because it's generic. You are making a claim not about your preference, but about the pledge.

    As a civilian you might not proffer to salute the flag, and that's fine. That's your choice. Declining to salute does not mean you're unAmerican. However, when you go further than your choice and claim the flag means nothing, not nothing **to you**, but nothing period, that is in fact unAmerican.

    Options can be valid even if you don't proffer them.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    I agree. That's not force.

    What made you think I was specifically talking about you?
    You quoted me.

    Quoting someone in a post is the equivalent of turning to them face to face and looking them in the eye while speaking to them.

  10. #110
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And I dare say that the majority of people that do not do the pledge….especially in regards to school age kids…are doing it for reasons that have NOTHING to do with demonstrating the freedoms this country gives them.
    That is probably true.

    I agree with you about being unpatriotic. I don’t agree with you about being LESS patriotic. If someone is not saying it for reasons that have nothing to do with showing love, devotion, or respect for ones country and the person saying it is doing it for those reasons, that other person is showing less patriotism in that act then that person. Why? Because in one case someone IS showing patriotism and in the other someone isn’t showing any patriotism. Not showing Patriotism is not the same as being unpatriotic. And Some is greater than None, therefore one is being at that moment LESS patriotic. Does that make them less patriotic overall? No. But in that act they are.

    To the first part, yes, you’re right, no real reason to say it. I’d wonder furtively though what about the notion of pledging your support for your country and for the principles of Liberty and Justice for all is something that you don’t actually feel. As to the second part, not really. What exactly is archaic about supporting ones country? What is archaic about the notions of Liberty and Justice for all? Just because the worlds are old doesn’t make them bad. I don’t see you arguing that the constitution should be ignored because it’s old. And in regards to the boring part…sorry, there is NOTHING patriotic at all about not saying something that is a national tradition because “its boring”. That’s not patriotic, that’s lazy. That’s no different to me than someone trying to defend why they didn’t want to stand and take off their hat during the National Anthem because “they were comfy sitting down”. Does it make them unpatriotic overall? No, but I think it is an unpatriotic act to have such little respect for your countries tradition to not stand up “Cause you’re country” and I think it’s a rather unpatriotic act if you don’t recite the pledge for no other reason than “its boring”.
    To me it's analogous to people who believe in God, but choose not to pray or go to church. Just because these people don't pray or go to church does it somehow mean that they love God less? I don't agree with that in the slightest. One doesn't have to recite something in order to express their love for something. People do it in different ways. They can feel love towards something without feeling the need to constantly express it. Not everyone gets the same feelings from reciting the pledge or singing the national anthem. Some people are more introverted, myself included. It doesn't make me less patriotic. Yes, to me they are meaningless words because not everyone gets the same feeling from them. Saying words vs. feeling actual love for something isn't even in the same ballpark to me. If you feel it and say the words and get something out of that, more power to you. However, not everyone is like that.

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