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Thread: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outraged

  1. #91
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's exactly correct.

    If you don't accept the symbols and ideals of a group, you don't belong in that group. This true regardless of the group in question.
    Not accepting the symbols doesn't mean that you don't accept the ideals. I love this country and feel very fortunate to be here considering the freedoms that we have here that so many don't have. So because I don't say the pledge because I think the words are generic, I somehow don't belong here? Give me a break.

    Considering that we have a choice not to participate in these things, I'd say we absolutely belong here. The fact that you think we don't because we don't follow some blind nationalist rituals says to me that you don't really agree with the ideals that this country stands behind.

  2. #92
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    = moving the goal posts; we're talking about here and now and yes the pledge does exist.

    If you don't accept the Swastika, 1488 and Arian purity you don't belong in the Nazi party. If you don't accept the coat hanger and "my body my choice" you don't belong in a pro-choice crowd. If you don't accept The Flying Spaghetti Monster and wear a pirate costume you don't belong in Pastapherianism.
    You said that those who do not recite "The Pledge" do not belong here.

    The pledge was created in 1892 so those who lived before that did not belong here.
    I set no goal post, just showing you that you have to exclude even the people who found the country because there was no pledge then.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    Yeah, because those extremists force their kids to do what they want, not giving the kids any freedom to make the decision for themselves, in an attempt to indoctrinate them with unquestioning loyalty to their country!

    Whereas here in America, when we make kids say the pledge... um... wait a minute...
    No one's talking about forcing anyone to say anything

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I don't get your point
    That some of the above things...like a schools fight song or colors...are the same thing on a smaller scale. They are both there for the exact same reason. To ingrain a sense of kinship between members of a group (citizens in the case of the pledge, students/alumnus in teh case of the school) which otherwise likely have great differences between them, tieing them to the over arching organization of which they're identifying with and tieing themselves to.

    I learned "Hail to the Redskins" when I was 6 years old and been a Redskins fan my whole life. Yet I still think the owner of the team is an idiot, think our integration history is horrible, and we make mistakes. Yet somehow if I grew up saying the Pledge of Alliegance I'm a brain washed fool that thinks America is perfect.

    I guess my father was a poor parent and an authoratarian, having me down there with him watching games singing the fight song after every score before I really even new all the rules of football or all the GOOD history surrounding the team. What a bastard he was, brain washing a poor child.

    My Fraternity had a specific small ritural (fancy greek term for tradition really) done befor every meeting, that essentially just reiterated our dedication to the Fraternity's founding principles. Again, every chapter of a fraternities meetings are likely going to be different based on the various types of people at each and the locations they're found...but there was that one common bond that any member of my frat could go to another and instantly find some kinship in the sharing of our devotion to the fraternity and its principles.

    The other half of it is the whole "meaningless antiquated tradition" thing. Few people celebrate St Patrick's Day for anything that has to do with the meaning behind the holiday, at least in this country. They mostly just use it as an excuse to drink. Should they be lambasted against and insulted for participating in such an antiquated ritural? Dying eggs and hiding ones with candy in it has nothing to do with the spiritual side of easter. If you raise your children doing just the secular portion, with the holiday having no meaning to you, are you simply indoctrinating your child into a holiday they don't even know the reasons for? Are you a bad parent if you just introduce Easter to your kids, without them knowing the reasons or things behind it, and teaching the kids through it how its fun and entertaining. I mean, you're not letting them know the full story and get the full history and decide for themselves...and apparently that's enough to condemn the saying of the pledge at schools.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You said that those who do not recite "The Pledge" do not belong here.
    What I said was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    They think the pledge is just dead words, which demonstrates that they don't belong here. You won't be able to make them change.
    Notice the word "recite" is not even in that post? We can tell by matching the letters composing "recite" with the letters composing each of the words in that quote and observe that word's absence. Therefore, we know I never said any such thing as you claim. You're making **** up now, which demonstrates dishonesty.

    One might disagree with the pledge in some fashion and not recite it, but to think it's nothing but dead words is not even disagreement. It's detachment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The pledge was created in 1892 so those who lived before that did not belong here.
    I set no goal post, just showing you that you have to exclude even the people who found the country because there was no pledge then.
    Please give an example of one such person who thought the pledge was nothing but empty, generic words before the pledge was written.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-25-10 at 02:41 PM.

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Not accepting the symbols doesn't mean that you don't accept the ideals. I love this country and feel very fortunate to be here considering the freedoms that we have here that so many don't have. So because I don't say the pledge because I think the words are generic, I somehow don't belong here?
    Not because you disagree and do not recite, but because you think the words are generic; that's correct, you don't belong in this country. Perhaps Iran would be more to your liking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    Considering that we have a choice not to participate in these things, I'd say we absolutely belong here. The fact that you think we don't because we don't follow some blind nationalist rituals says to me that you don't really agree with the ideals that this country stands behind.
    Again, I'm not talking about participation. You seem to be hung up on something I never said.

  7. #97
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    What I said was:



    Notice the word "recite" is not even in that post? We can tell by matching the letters composing "recite" with the letters composing each of the words in that quote and observe that word's absence. Therefore, we know I never said any such thing as you claim. You're making **** up now, which demonstrates dishonesty.

    One might disagree with the pledge in some fashion and not recite it, but to think it's nothing but dead words is not even disagreement. It's detachment.
    Nice edit add there.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Nice edit add there.
    Keep an eye, I still have time left to edit further. Everyone knows about the 25 minute rule, there are time stamps and the Live Topic feature has been activated for this thread, so it's fair game.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-25-10 at 02:42 PM.

  9. #99
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    = dismissal tactic because you can't debate the point
    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    You didn't make an argument. You merely expressed your opinion. How am I to respond? By telling you I think your opinion is wrong and mine is right?
    No response?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  10. #100
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    Re: Child escorted out of class by police for sitting during the pledge, mother outra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No one's talking about forcing anyone to say anything
    Depends on your definition of "force" I suppose. Some here have suggested that the kid get patriotism whipped into him, or that it is right that the kid be "educated" or punished in some other way.

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