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2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

Ethereal said:
Except it's not what's right for combat units, as has been said a million times already.
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There is a technical term for posts like the above. That term is "opinion". You can repeat it over and over again, and it will still be nothing more than an opinion. Saying it a million times does not make it any more than an opinion. Feel free though, say it a million more times.
 
Navy Pride said:
When I say stay home I mean they are not out partying in the bars when their husbands are gone...........
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Sadly, this is not true either. The night a ship pulled out was party night at the E-club, where the guys went to hook up with the wives of deployed men. It was thankfully a fairly small percentage that where actually out to get picked up, by still far too large.
 
CriticalThought said:
And frankly, I value the opinion of the top combat commander over a couple pencil pushing generals.
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:rofl

Your ignorance of the military is astounding. You think the two Generals cited in this article are paper-pushers, but Admiral Mullen, well, he's just a salty old dog...:roll:

I got news for you, chief. Admiral Mullen is a paper-pusher, too; at least, according to your stupid ass definition.
 
Redress said:
There is a technical term for posts like the above. That term is "opinion". You can repeat it over and over again, and it will still be nothing more than an opinion. Saying it a million times does not make it any more than an opinion. Feel free though, say it a million more times.
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Of course it's an opinion but, unlike your opinion, it's one based off of years of firsthand experience in an infantry unit. I'm sorry if my firsthand experience undermines your political agenda, but I won't apologize for speaking the truth, no matter how much it upsets you...
 
Ethereal said:
Of course it's an opinion but, unlike your opinion, it's one based off of years of firsthand experience in an infantry unit. I'm sorry if my firsthand experience undermines your political agenda, but I won't apologize for speaking the truth, no matter how much it upsets you...
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Your firsthand experience is just like all anecdotal evidence, nearly worthless. You do not know what most combat solders think, no matter what you claim. You can only really make claims about your own attitudes, and your biased(not an insult, we all bring biases with us) view of those around you.

In this, my agenda is not political. It is about doing what is right, and what is best for the military. Frame that however you want, but that is the reason why I believe as I do.
 
Redress said:
Your firsthand experience is just like all anecdotal evidence, nearly worthless.
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Right. When we're discussing the attitude of a specific group within the military, a person who was actually in that group for over three years has nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion....:roll:

You do not know what most combat solders think, no matter what you claim.
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I never said I know what most combat soldiers think. What I do know, however, is what thousands of infantry Marines think about gay dudes.

You can only really make claims about your own attitudes, and your biased(not an insult, we all bring biases with us) view of those around you.
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My only bias is towards the truth. Gays serving openly in my unit would have caused numerous problems. Apparently, that doesn't matter to you...

In this, my agenda is not political. It is about doing what is right, and what is best for the military. Frame that however you want, but that is the reason why I believe as I do.
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BS. If you were interested in doing what's best for the military you would listen to the infantrymen and combat veterans who have given their opinion on the topic. Instead, you ignore us and pretend like our objections are worthless.
 
Redress said:
Sadly, this is not true either. The night a ship pulled out was party night at the E-club, where the guys went to hook up with the wives of deployed men. It was thankfully a fairly small percentage that where actually out to get picked up, by still far too large.
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I am sorry you have so little respect for Navy Wives......Remember for every woman you see in those parties there are 10 staying home manning the homefront and taking care of their family....

Shame on you for painting all wives with the same brush....
 
Ethereal said:
Right. When we're discussing the attitude of a specific group within the military, a person who was actually in that group for over three years has nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion....:roll:
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Anecdotal evidence is always suspect. When I use my experiences, I try and mention that(though I don't too often). You can use a collection of anecdotes to draw a picture, but no one person has enough vision to see beyond their immediate surroundings.

I never said I know what most combat soldiers think. What I do know, however, is what thousands of infantry Marines think about gay dudes.
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But you do not know what most think. You are speculating at best, based on your views and perceptions.

My only bias is towards the truth. Gays serving openly in my unit would have caused numerous problems. Apparently, that doesn't matter to you...
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You are alive, you are human, you have biases. That's not a fault, that is just the way it is. I would never claim to not be biased, don't try and fool me into thinking you do not have them as well. I am not saying you are biased against gays(I have no way of knowing), but you are very much biased against gays in combat units.

BS. If you were interested in doing what's best for the military you would listen to the infantrymen and combat veterans who have given their opinion on the topic. Instead, you ignore us and pretend like our objections are worthless.
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I listen to every one(including you). I personally believe, based on the available evidence, that it is doable without sacrificing the ability of the military to perform it's mission. I base that on a number of things. I do not claim it will be painless, but I doubt it will be very painful, with most of the problems in commands with weak commanders. Strong leadership creates better military units, better cohesion, better teamwork, and problems like what are going to happen don't last long.
 
Navy Pride said:
I am sorry you have so little respect for Navy Wives......Remember for every woman you see in those parties there are 10 staying home manning the homefront and taking care of their family....

Shame on you for painting all wives with the same brush....
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Navy, what does "fairly small percentage" mean? Are you denying that the E-Club is busy the night a ship pulls out? I am basing this on what I saw, if you saw different things, speak up, I am interested.
 
Ethereal said:
Once again, "the military" is a generic term that has no relevance to my argument. I'm talking specifically about infantry units.
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And you think this is a sufficient reason to keep DADT?
 
Lightdemon said:
And you think this is a sufficient reason to keep DADT?
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Like I said, it should be left up to unit commanders; DADT does not allow this kind of discretion; it is effectively a zero tolerance policy; instead, we should leave it up to the experts, that is, the military.
 
Ethereal said:
Like I said, it should be left up to unit commanders; DADT does not allow this kind of discretion; it is effectively a zero tolerance policy; instead, we should leave it up to the experts, that is, the military.
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The military is now expert in homosexuality?
 
apdst said:
Post anything you like, but the fact still remains, that Article 125 is the law that bans gays from serving the in the military. Case closed.
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So how are females who are gay automatically guilty? Just because a woman is gay, doesn't mean she is committing or receiving oral. And I did know a girl who was discharged for being gay. She turned herself in. According to her, all she had to do was sign a paper that said she was gay, not that she had actually ever participated in any violation of Article 125.
 
Ethereal said:
Like I said, it should be left up to unit commanders; DADT does not allow this kind of discretion; it is effectively a zero tolerance policy; instead, we should leave it up to the experts, that is, the military.
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The problem here is where does that discretion stop. Should the commanders be allowed to decide to discharge anyone they find could be a problem to good order and discipline? There would be a whole mess of problems with this. I could see guys in a unit going out of their way to make it look like someone everyone, or even a group within the unit couldn't stand was a problem to good order and discipline, and then instead of the real trouble makers being punished, the guy they don't like would get discharged. And what would be wrong with simply transferring that person? Could work, except you would still have the problem that you're not expecting the unit personnel to be tolerant of differences, even those they don't like and you're technically still punishing the victim of the intolerance instead of those who are being intolerant.

This policy wouldn't be acceptable if the issue was about racism causing a problem in good order and discipline. Here's an example that might make you see the point. What if you had a group of guys in a unit who didn't like the fact that this guy dated other guys? He is professional at work, but the unit knows that he likes guys because they have seen him around town holding hands with one. Now this group of guys who don't like guys dating other guys is constantly making disruptions or obviously doesn't like the gay guy. They purposely go out of their way to disobey or argue with the gay guy's orders. I'm sure you would call this a disruption to good order and discipline, and suggest that the guy get discharged or transferred. But what if you replace gay guy or guy who dates other guys, with guys who date girls of another race. Would it still be acceptable or would the intolerant ones be the ones punished or forced to change?
 
roguenuke said:
So how are females who are gay automatically guilty? Just because a woman is gay, doesn't mean she is committing or receiving oral. And I did know a girl who was discharged for being gay. She turned herself in. According to her, all she had to do was sign a paper that said she was gay, not that she had actually ever participated in any violation of Article 125.
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I will say this again, and maybe aspdt will finally understand this...most DADT discharges are not article 125. Hell, you can get an honorable DADT discharge.
 
Navy Pride said:
When I say stay home I mean they are not out partying in the bars when their husbands are gone...........
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What's wrong with going to a bar while your husband is on deployment? I'm pretty sure husbands would go to the bars with their wives gone out. And a lot of husbands go out partying at bars while their on deployment, Navy deployments anyway. People can go to a bar without cheating on their spouse. I was going to the bar to drink and dance while my husband was gone. It's no big deal. Now I agree that cheating on your spouse, while they are out on deployment is bad, unless the couple has agreed before that it is ok.
 
roguenuke said:
What's wrong with going to a bar while your husband is on deployment? I'm pretty sure husbands would go to the bars with their wives gone out. And a lot of husbands go out partying at bars while their on deployment, Navy deployments anyway. People can go to a bar without cheating on their spouse. I was going to the bar to drink and dance while my husband was gone. It's no big deal. Now I agree that cheating on your spouse, while they are out on deployment is bad, unless the couple has agreed before that it is ok.
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Going to a bar is the first step into being unfaithful....Booze can make someone feel very uninhibited and they might do something they would not do if sober......You might not mind your wife doing it but I would sure mind if mine did.......as far as the husbands go on deployment I can not defend them if they fool around over seas but I will not throw stones at them if they do.........
 
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Navy Pride said:
Going to a bar is the first step into being unfaithful....Booze can make someone feel very uninhibited and they might do something they would not do if sober......You might not mind your wife doing it but I would sure mind if mine did.......as far as the husbands go on deployment I can not defend them if they fool around over seas but I will not throw stones at them if they do.........
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Can you clarify this a bit please? Is it the double standard it sounds like?
 
Redress said:
Can you clarify this a bit please? Is it the double standard it sounds like?
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No double standard.....When I was a young sailor before I was married I sowed a few oats myself there fore its not up to me to judge my shipmates and what they do when the go on liberty.......

I will leave that up to the people who have not sinned.....
 
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Navy Pride said:
Neither but unless you gay and you have been to sea for 90 days with a crew of women and you had a naked one in your rack I doubt if you could control yourself........

That what happens when a gay guy is with all straight men for a long period of time...they are attracted to them and make unwanted advances against them and get caught and get discharged........-I don't actuallu even blame them........Its a physical attraction they have just like mine to women........
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I'm pretty sure that no one in the military actually shares their rack with anyone else. Even hot racking, they don't actually climb into bed with another sailor. And most guys and girls I knew didn't get naked in front of each other. The one girl that did in our birthing, was not attractive at all. Most of us tried real hard to make sure we didn't have to see her get out of her rack or wake her up. The only time we didn't have individual shower stalls was boot camp.

And you're very wrong about why most gays get discharged. Truthfully most are because they turn themselves in because they want out for many different reasons. A lot of heteros use this too. Especially when they first get in, and decide the military really isn't for them. Those that end up involuntarily discharged are generally because they get caught on base or ship with someone of the same sex, happens more with hetero couples on ship from what I seen though. But a gay guy or girl can get discharged for simply getting caught holding hands or kissing a person of the same sex. Something that wouldn't happen to a hetero. Or, some homophobic guy turned them in because he felt the person was hitting on him or he was offended by comments or actions of that person whether they were directed at him or not, and whether they were truly offensive or not. Once in a while, a gay guy may get discharged for actually hitting on a straight guy, but generally that's not what happens because the gays that want to stay in the military tend to know who's gay and who's not.
 
Navy Pride said:
Going to a bar is the first step into being unfaithful....Booze can make someone feel very uninhibited and they might do something they would not do if sober......You might not mind your wife doing it but I would sure mind if mine did.......as far as the husbands go on deployment I can not defend them if they fool around over seas but I will not throw stones at them if they do.........
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Not everyone drinks that much at a bar. I personally only drank one drink most of the time. Many times I'd go and just drink water. That's why the waitresses didn't realize I was pregnant until I started to show. I go mainly to dance. I knew a lot of women who would do that or go out with a group of other women, at least one of which wouldn't drink, that they knew would give them a safety and not let them do things they may be too drunk to realize the consequences of.
 
roguenuke said:
I'm pretty sure that no one in the military actually shares their rack with anyone else. Even hot racking, they don't actually climb into bed with another sailor. And most guys and girls I knew didn't get naked in front of each other. The one girl that did in our birthing, was not attractive at all. Most of us tried real hard to make sure we didn't have to see her get out of her rack or wake her up. The only time we didn't have individual shower stalls was boot camp.

And you're very wrong about why most gays get discharged. Truthfully most are because they turn themselves in because they want out for many different reasons. A lot of heteros use this too. Especially when they first get in, and decide the military really isn't for them. Those that end up involuntarily discharged are generally because they get caught on base or ship with someone of the same sex, happens more with hetero couples on ship from what I seen though. But a gay guy or girl can get discharged for simply getting caught holding hands or kissing a person of the same sex. Something that wouldn't happen to a hetero. Or, some homophobic guy turned them in because he felt the person was hitting on him or he was offended by comments or actions of that person whether they were directed at him or not, and whether they were truly offensive or not. Once in a while, a gay guy may get discharged for actually hitting on a straight guy, but generally that's not what happens because the gays that want to stay in the military tend to know who's gay and who's not.
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No they don't share their racks but they sleep only a few inches from one another in fact I was a witness at a courtmartial where a guy made sexual advance against another guy by reaching up to the rack he was in and assaulting him..........


What else you said is pretty much true that is why if they ever do away with DADT they should go back to the way it was prior to DADT......
 
roguenuke said:
Not everyone drinks that much at a bar. I personally only drank one drink most of the time. Many times I'd go and just drink water. That's why the waitresses didn't realize I was pregnant until I started to show. I go mainly to dance. I knew a lot of women who would do that or go out with a group of other women, at least one of which wouldn't drink, that they knew would give them a safety and not let them do things they may be too drunk to realize the consequences of.
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I would say you are the exception rather then the rule........Sailors go on the beach to get drunk and pick up girls for the most part.......I don't know what females do because when I was in the Navy there were no females aboard combatents and they did not have the problems they have today.....

Its a whole new ball game now but if your telling me that female navy personnel don't go to bars to pick up guys I am not buying it..........You may have been the exception to the rule...........
 
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