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2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

ptif219 said:
First they have to determine if the change will benefit the military
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Correct, though that is basically seen as a given at this point.
 
CriticalThought said:
How come every conservative has a gay friend?

Just an observation on my part.

Do you have a gay friend?
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Not that I'm aware of. I work with a couple gays, but we're not friends, because they're both too stupid for me to associate with. But, they would be stupid if they were straight, so...

One's a chick. She and I could quickly become friends if she would let me watch. ;)
 
apdst said:
Not that I'm aware of. I work with a couple gays, but we're not friends, because they're both too stupid for me to associate with. But, they would be stupid if they were straight, so...

One's a chick. She and I could quickly become friends if she would let me watch. ;)
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Ah, you broke the mold.

You are the first conservative on the planet that I have met who doesn't have a gay friend.

So how come you don't have any gay friends? What makes you so sure that some of your other friends might not secretly be gay?
 
Redress said:
Have you ever read the DADT policy? Are you aware of the types of discharges you get for violating DADT policy? Are you aware that being gay does not necessarily mean committing sodomy? Are you aware that you can be celibate and still discharged under DADT?
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Any celibate gay person that gets discharged under DADT is either too stupid to be in the service, or didn't want to be there to begin with, so I'm not having a problem with that.

Committing sodomy is the only way for homosexuals to have actual intercourse, hence article 134 is the law that supports DADT.
 
CriticalThought said:
Ah, you broke the mold.

You are the first conservative on the planet that I have met who doesn't have a gay friend.
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Yeah and every Liberal I talk to has a gay, black, asian and indian, because we're all supposed to believe that Libbos are just nicer like that and ****.

So how come you don't have any gay friends? What makes you so sure that some of your other friends might not secretly be gay?
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As I said, not that I'm aware of. I just might be friends with someone that is gay, but I don't know that they are gay and don't really give a ****, either. Ya see, me and the people I am friends with, we all take each other at face value and don't worry about all that other ****.
 
apdst said:
Any celibate gay person that gets discharged under DADT is either too stupid to be in the service, or didn't want to be there to begin with, so I'm not having a problem with that.

Committing sodomy is the only way for homosexuals to have actual intercourse, hence article 134 is the law that supports DADT.
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The DADT policy says that admitting to be gay, or a command learning that you are gay is cause for discharge. Again, read the linked material in this very thread. You can use that site to get the very laws that make up DADT, you can also learn about what constitutes a DADT violation, the types of discharges you can get, what is marked on your DD-214, and much more. Educate yourself before you bury yourself even more.
 
Redress said:
We have on this board two I think gays who served in the military. One was a nuke in the navy. Interestingly(at least to me), both are very conservative.

Of course the problem is that some see them as gays, instead of as people who served their country. People use labels so they can distance themselves from what is actually happening. Gays are scary, though most gay people are not when you actually get to know them.
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There's another nuke on this board?

I'm pretty conservative normally, but gay rights is one of my liberal leanings. Mostly because of the fairness thing, and I was raised to believe that whenever possible, people should be given fair treatment, not just when it didn't inconvenience someone else to do so. Also, in the last 8 or so years, my brother's lifestyle choices, although not gay, have pushed me to argue harder for fair treatment for all those like him or in a similar situation of being ostracized because they are different from the "norm".
 
apdst said:
Any celibate gay person that gets discharged under DADT is either too stupid to be in the service, or didn't want to be there to begin with, so I'm not having a problem with that.
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So if a gay person gets caught kissing their partner while on leave, and then gets discharged, then they were too stupid to be in the service?
 
roguenuke said:
There's another nuke on this board?

I'm pretty conservative normally, but gay rights is one of my liberal leanings. Mostly because of the fairness thing, and I was raised to believe that whenever possible, people should be given fair treatment, not just when it didn't inconvenience someone else to do so. Also, in the last 8 or so years, my brother's lifestyle choices, although not gay, have pushed me to argue harder for fair treatment for all those like him or in a similar situation of being ostracized because they are different from the "norm".
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I am not going to name him(though he does not hide it, just not my place to do so), but yeah, I am 90 % sure he was a nuke. Good guy, even if he is conservative.
 
apdst said:
As I said, not that I'm aware of. I just might be friends with someone that is gay, but I don't know that they are gay and don't really give a ****, either. Ya see, me and the people I am friends with, we all take each other at face value and don't worry about all that other ****.
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Interesting. Kinda like how soldiers relate to one another.
 
apdst said:
Any celibate gay person that gets discharged under DADT is either too stupid to be in the service, or didn't want to be there to begin with, so I'm not having a problem with that.

Committing sodomy is the only way for homosexuals to have actual intercourse, hence article 134 is the law that supports DADT.
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A homosexual will be discharged for attempting to marry someone of the same sex. A command does not have to prove that the two are committing sodomy, only that they are trying to get married even if it is in a state where it is legal, or even just a commitment ceremony that the command finds out about.
 
Redress said:
The DADT policy says that admitting to be gay, or a command learning that you are gay is cause for discharge. Again, read the linked material in this very thread. You can use that sight to get the very laws that make up DADT, you can also learn about what constitutes a DADT violation, the types of discharges you can get, what is marked on your DD-214, and much more. Educate yourself before you bury yourself even more.
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Ah-hah! Yes, outright admitting that you're gay will get your ass kicked out in a heart beat. Maybe they should excercise their right to, "...don't tell".

How would command, "learn they were gay"? There would have to be some sorta evidence to allow a commander to keep from violating DADT. Obviously, that evidence would have to be homosexual activity and nooooooo hanging out with another dude/dudette having a drink isn't enough. One of my brothers and I linked up at the NCO tavern at Fort hood and we hugged. Nobody ever raised a question about our sexual orientation.

I think you're just spreading whitewash.
 
roguenuke said:
A homosexual will be discharged for attempting to marry someone of the same sex. A command does not have to prove that the two are committing sodomy, only that they are trying to get married even if it is in a state where it is legal, or even just a commitment ceremony that the command finds out about.
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Wouldn't you think that two people of the same sex would be proof enough that they are gay? C'mon, let's start using some common sense, here.

They're going to consumate the marriage, right?
 
So the entire time you are in the military, whether you are on active duty or sitting at home, you should be secretive about your sexual orientation?
 
CriticalThought said:
So the entire time you are in the military, whether you are on active duty or sitting at home, you should be secretive about your sexual orientation?
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With the exception of sitting in your home, yes, you should.

Are you aware that talking about sex, or even your sexuality in front of a female soldier can be considered sexual harassment? It's a good idea not to go blabbin' too much about your personal life in the service, because you never know who might here you and the next thing you know, you're up on some chicken**** charge.

But, hey, I was only in the service for 12 years, what the hell do I know, right?
 
apdst said:
Ah-hah! Yes, outright admitting that you're gay will get your ass kicked out in a heart beat. Maybe they should excercise their right to, "...don't tell".

How would command, "learn they were gay"? There would have to be some sorta evidence to allow a commander to keep from violating DADT. Obviously, that evidence would have to be homosexual activity and nooooooo hanging out with another dude/dudette having a drink isn't enough. One of my brothers and I linked up at the NCO tavern at Fort hood and we hugged. Nobody ever raised a question about our sexual orientation.

I think you're just spreading whitewash.
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I mentioned several ways, you focus on one. There are a number of ways a command can find out a person is gay, such as something as simple as some one else seeing them holding hands with a person of the same sex. The command will then "ask" as part of the proceedings, and the gay person has two options, lie, which can result in much more serious charges, or admit it, which results in a discharge.

Note that nowhere is any sodomy involved in this scenario. Are you willing to admit that sodomy is not the issue with DADT?
 
apdst said:
Wouldn't you think that two people of the same sex would be proof enough that they are gay? C'mon, let's start using some common sense, here.

They're going to consumate the marriage, right?
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How do you know they want to consummate the marriage? Maybe they are intimate on other levels. Love and wanting to be married does not mean having sex 100% of the time. The vast majority, yes. But consummation is not a legal requirement of marriage, unless they have a prenup that it is. I'm sorry if you believe that every marriage is exactly the same, but it's not true.

Also, you are wrong that they could bring their significant other to a military function or be seen in acts of PDA.

GAY RIGHTS IN THE MILITARY - GAY RIGHTS IN THE MILITARY - The Pentagon's New Policy Guidelines on Homosexuals in the Military - Text - NYTimes.com

Bodily contact between service members of the same sex that a reasonable person would understand to demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts (e.g., hand-holding or kissing in most circumstances) will be sufficient to initiate separation.
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Bodily contact between service members of the same sex that a reasonable person would understand to demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts (e.g., hand-holding or kissing in most circumstances) will be sufficient to initiate separation.
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Well, there ya go! It all makes sense when combined with relaity. Yes?
 
apdst said:
Wouldn't you think that two people of the same sex would be proof enough that they are gay? C'mon, let's start using some common sense, here.

They're going to consumate the marriage, right?
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Gay relationships encompass a fair range of sexual activities, not all of which constitute sodomy. It is entirely possible to have a gay relationship which does not encompass sodomy, and in fact these relationships are not uncommon.
 
Redress said:
Gay relationships encompass a fair range of sexual activities, not all of which constitute sodomy. It is entirely possible to have a gay relationship which does not encompass sodomy, and in fact these relationships are not uncommon.
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Short of kissing, there's no sexual activity that gays can engage in that isn't sodomy.
 
apdst said:
Short of kissing, there's no sexual activity that gays can engage in that isn't sodomy.
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Frotting, oral sex, mutual masturbation, sex toys, etc.

Or were you going for the Biblical definition of "sodomy"?
 
apdst said:
Well, there ya go! It all makes sense when combined with relaity. Yes?
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Huh???

Not sure what the heck this means.

You said earlier that they had to actually commit sodomy, attempt to commit sodomy, or admit to being gay. My article showed that you are wrong. If a gay guy was seen on a date, at a public movie theater, by someone his chain of command, and he was just holding hands with the guy, then he could be discharged, whether they had or planned on having sex at all. This is highly unfair, since a hetero couple can do the exact same thing without worrying about getting discharged for it.
 
apdst said:
Short of kissing, there's no sexual activity that gays can engage in that isn't sodomy.
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This is false. According to article 125, penetration is required. Mutual masturbation is not sodomy as defined by the UCMJ.
 
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