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2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

Ethereal said:
Only way? No, it's just one way that it could happen. Nevertheless, it is a very distinct possibility, which is why so many people are hesitant to rush into repealing DADT.



Well, you don't.



Sure, she has some knowledge about the military, but the military is not a homogeneous organization that can be spoken of in meaningless generalities. I'm sure she has a lot of knowledge about drinking coffee and doing paper work but her understanding of combat units and their cohesiveness is nonexistent.
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Holy crap. You know nothing about this Brigadier General's service. One, she's a doctor. Two, she engaged in combat in 1991 and received a Purple Heart, the Bronze Star medal, Distinguished Flying Cross, and other awards. Three, her husband is an officer. I'd say more, but I worry you'll figure out who she is because she is well known.

If it makes you feel better to degrade her service, be my guest.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
It is really tiring listening to people say, "well I served in the military, so only I know what happens there and what this is about." It gives the impression that only those who served have the right/knowledge to discuss this. If that is true, than anyone who has never had an abortion has no right to discuss the issue. And no one who is not a liberal (or conservative) can discuss what it's like to be a liberal (or conservative). And if anyone dares to comment on the psychological nature of anything, I'll just tell them that since they are not a therapist, their opinion is meaningless. It's a weak debate tactic, that attempts to dismiss opinion without reason. Here's another way to look at it. Those in the military have NO ability to comment on this issue because they have no objectivity. :roll: Guess what? Arguing from either position is cowardly and shows that you cannot defend your position, logically.
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Sorry mate but if you have never been in the military you cant talk about it. You just have no clue who it works, its very different than civilian life.

The military isnt here to be guinny pigs for social projects, we are here to kill people and blow things up.

Sorry if that offends you, just the way it is. :2wave:
 
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Vanskills said:
Sorry mate but if you have never been in the military you cant talk about it. You just have no clue who it works, its very different than civilian life.

Sorry if that offends you, just the way it is. :2wave:
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BS. It's cowardly debating, but if that's how you want it, I'll happily work this angle. Folks not in the military can discuss it all they want. Those in the military have no objectivity and should be excluded. Sorry you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

Oh, and if we are talking about the psychology of what happens in the military, since you have no psychology degree, you have no clue how it works, so you can't discuss it.

So which of the above do you want to go with. I can play either way.
 
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Well mate, couch warriors like yourself wont be deciding the fate of the military anyway, so i guess we are safe, :2wave:
 
Vanskills said:
Well mate, couch warriors like yourself wont be deciding the fate of the military anyway, so i guess we are safe, :2wave:
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Well "mate" grunts like you have no say in what's going to happen, so I suppose we are safe.

Still want to play? Or do you want to actually debate the issue?
 
Vanskills said:
Sorry mate but if you have never been in the military you cant talk about it. You just have no clue who it works, its very different than civilian life.

The military isnt here to be guinny pigs for social projects, we are here to kill people and blow things up.

Sorry if that offends you, just the way it is. :2wave:
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How comes you are allowed to talk about climate change? You just have no clue how it works, it's very different than military life.

Climatologists aren't here to **** penguins, they're here to scare people and think things up.

Sorry if that offends you, just the way it is. :2wave:
 
aps said:
How does someone's sexual orientation impact their ability to serve our country? Can you please explain this to me?
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No, I cannot. Because you refuse to accept that it's not so much "their ability" as it is the effect on the morale and good order and dicipline that is at stake. To you, this is a civil rights issue, an unfair denail of service to good, honest hard working mena nd women being denied their right to serve their country because some homophobes can't handle the thought of gays serving in "their military".

While I WON'T deny, there are hate filled homophobes out there that will never accept openly gay men and women in the service, that's not where the real issue lay, and never has to be honest. You refuse to address this, because to address this takes the argument from your carefully constructed world of "civil rights" and into reality.

Reality check is, that such a move would have a net NEGATIVE impact on the services for an unforeseeable amount of adjustment time. It could take only a few years, or it could take a decade to get things under control. We just don't know.

You say "Too bad, they just need to get over it" And part of me AGREES with you, however, having served and having an insight into the military mind being a third generation service member, I knwo that a lot of folks would have a very hard time adjusting to taking orders from a "man" that loves another man. It's JUST HOW IT IS.

When you have to trust the person giving you orders, that your LIFE is on the line, distractions are not needed. People have to trust those above them. There WILL be a trust issue that will arise. There will be issues with good order and dicipline. There will be morale problems.

Are those worth allowing what, 5% of the population the ability to openly serve gay or lesbian? When you tell me what the COMBAT benefit of allwoing Gays to openly serve is, then maybe we can get soemwhere.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Well "mate" grunts like you have no say in what's going to happen, so I suppose we are safe.

Still want to play? Or do you want to actually debate the issue?
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You can debate all you want on forums, in the end Military commanders run the military.

But feel free to debate on things you do not know about and will never effect. be my guest.:2wave:
 
bub said:
How comes you are allowed to talk about climate change? You just have no clue how it works, it's very different than military life.

Climatologists aren't here to **** penguins, they're here to scare people and think things up.

Sorry if that offends you, just the way it is. :2wave:
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Wait... do you mean that if you are NOT a climatologist you can't discuss climate change issue? :shock: Wow, that's certainly going to cause the Environmental Forum to have very few folks posting.

You know what else? I guess that also means that if you are not a member of law enforcement, you have no right to discuss legal issues... I mean, you don't actually know what goes on there, so how could you discuss it?

Do you people see how weak and cowardly this line of debate is? Being in the military may give you a different perspective, but it is not the ONLY perspective, nor does it eliminate others from discussing the topic... unless you have nothing else in your bag of tricks... no logic... to debate with.

I suppose I should go around and eliminate from debate all those who are not members of a profession or have some expertise in the area in which they are debating. DP is about to become a very lonely place. :roll:
 
MrVicchio said:
No, I cannot. Because you refuse to accept that it's not so much "their ability" as it is the effect on the morale and good order and dicipline that is at stake. To you, this is a civil rights issue, an unfair denail of service to good, honest hard working mena nd women being denied their right to serve their country because some homophobes can't handle the thought of gays serving in "their military".

While I WON'T deny, there are hate filled homophobes out there that will never accept openly gay men and women in the service, that's not where the real issue lay, and never has to be honest. You refuse to address this, because to address this takes the argument from your carefully constructed world of "civil rights" and into reality.

Reality check is, that such a move would have a net NEGATIVE impact on the services for an unforeseeable amount of adjustment time. It could take only a few years, or it could take a decade to get things under control. We just don't know.

You say "Too bad, they just need to get over it" And part of me AGREES with you, however, having served and having an insight into the military mind being a third generation service member, I knwo that a lot of folks would have a very hard time adjusting to taking orders from a "man" that loves another man. It's JUST HOW IT IS.

When you have to trust the person giving you orders, that your LIFE is on the line, distractions are not needed. People have to trust those above them. There WILL be a trust issue that will arise. There will be issues with good order and dicipline. There will be morale problems.

Are those worth allowing what, 5% of the population the ability to openly serve gay or lesbian? When you tell me what the COMBAT benefit of allwoing Gays to openly serve is, then maybe we can get soemwhere.
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So your argument is that it will affect
- morale
- discipline

Then let's try to understand why these things would be affected!

- I don't see any possible effect on morale. Everyone knows that the US Defense forces are full of gays

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw"]YouTube- In the Navy[/nomedia]



- Discipline? Do you think that there will be homophobic people who'll refuse to obey to orders of a gay? Then the same argument could be applied to exclude black people from the army!
 
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You are too ignorant to realize throwing openly flaming homosexuals into the military would cause a TON of problems with young 18-20 year old males that dominate the military. Listen bleeding liberal, you will NEVER change the mind or behavior of MILLIONS of young men with raging testorene to suddenly be kool with a bunch of homo's around them in close quaters
 
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Vanskills said:
You are too ignorant to realize throwing openly flaming homosexuals into the military would cause a TON of problems with young 18-20 year old males
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More than allowing black people?
 
Vanskills said:
You can debate all you want on forums, in the end Military commanders run the military.
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Yes, and some military commanders seem to have a different opiinon on this, proving that folks like you... in the field have no bearing on this issue. So feel free to debate something that you have no impact on.

But feel free to debate on things you do not know about and will never effect. be my guest.:2wave:
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All you are doing is continuing to prove that you cannot debate the topic, but that's OK. Let's take a quick scan of what topics you post on and then perhaps you can tell us how you qualify to discuss those topics. If you can't prove that, I suppose you should eliminate yourself from those debates.
 
bub said:
More than allowing black people?
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I wont even entertain discusion with someone who thinks homo's in the military is merely civil rights.

Your a typical liberal who thinks he knows how to run the military when your probably scared of your own shadow:2wave:
 
Vanskills said:
You are too ignorant to realize throwing openly flaming homosexuals into the military would cause a TON of problems with young 18-20 year old males that dominate the military. Listen bleeding liberal, you will NEVER change the mind or behavior of MILLIONS of young men with raging testorene to suddenly be kool with a bunch of homo's around them in close quaters
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Wait... are you an 18-20 year old who has been around a bunch of "homos" in close quarters? I'm sorry, but if you are not, you have no experience on this issue, know nothing about it, and have no business discussing it.
 
bub said:
So your argument is that it will affect
- morale
- discipline

Then let's try to understand why these things would be affected!

- I don't see any possible effect on morale. Everyone knows that the US Defense forces are full of gays

YouTube- In the Navy



- Discipline? Do you think that there will be homophobic people who'll refuse to obey to orders of a gay? Then the same argument could be applied to exclude black people from the army!
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And people wonder why there is very little actual discussion or debate around here. I gave a very honest point of discussion, and you skimmed it, ignored the main points (just as I said would happen) and tossed in a lame comment about blacks which I had all ready addressed but you wouldn't know that because you refused to read what I wrote.

Typical.
 
bub said:
So your argument is that it will affect
- morale
- discipline

Then let's try to understand why these things would be affected!

- I don't see any possible effect on morale. Everyone knows that the US Defense forces are full of gays

YouTube- In the Navy



- Discipline? Do you think that there will be homophobic people who'll refuse to obey to orders of a gay? Then the same argument could be applied to exclude black people from the army!
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ewwwww I typed "army gay" on google to get funny pictures...just don't do that :shock:
 
bub said:
ewwwww I typed "army gay" on google to get funny pictures...just don't do that :shock:
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I suppose I should just leave you and CC to circle jerk your attack on the new guy posting here because he doesn't post the "right way" and says things you think aren't worth discussing. Better to do that then ya know, address any real attempts to discuss this issue.
 
MrVicchio said:
And people wonder why there is very little actual discussion or debate around here. I gave a very honest point of discussion, and you skimmed it, ignored the main points (just as I said would happen) and tossed in a lame comment about blacks which I had all ready addressed but you wouldn't know that because you refused to read what I wrote.

Typical.
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What was your main point? Wasn't it about morale and discipline? You said that there were homophobic people who'll not obey to orders given by gays, didn't you?
 
Hey genius listen.

There are gang bangers in the military too, i bet you didnt know that did ya?..did you ever wonder how south central gang signs got written on walls in Iraq?

You just have no clue how crazy it would be to throw in a bunch of open homos in close quaters with a bunch of young people fighting wars, it wouldnt be pretty.

Just the way it is sweetheart:2wave:
 
MrVicchio said:
I suppose I should just leave you and CC to circle jerk your attack on the new guy posting here because he doesn't post the "right way" and says things you think aren't worth discussing. Better to do that then ya know, address any real attempts to discuss this issue.
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I'm happy to discuss the issue and don't completely disagree with you. I, however, will NOT tolerate someone making the ridiculous claims that because you do not have direct experience in an area, you cannot discuss it. It's a weak debate tactic, and I will confront it when I see it and demonstrate it's lack of logic. Or, if folks would prefer, I can play the same game throughout the forum.
 
bub said:
What was your main point? Wasn't it about morale and discipline? You said that there were homophobic people who'll not obey to orders given by gays, didn't you?
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Nope, that only shows you didn't read what was written and refuse to address the main issue. I'm not gonna bother re-writing my points because you... aren't interested in discussing this issue honestly. You are too busy playing "look at me, I'm pro-gay haha screw those idiots that don't support gays in the military" games.

Now, if you wanna re-read what I ALL READY wrote, and address the main thrst which is quite clear and has very little to do with homophobes, and why good order and dicipline are important then I'll bother to respond to you again. Otherwise, save us both the effort of your typing and my reading anything else you might have to "add".
 
The military is full of millions of "homophobes"

Are you going to change them all? no of course you arent.

Like i said your opinion means squat anyway, the military will decide what happens:2wave:
 
MrVicchio said:
Nope, that only shows you didn't read what was written and refuse to address the main issue. I'm not gonna bother re-writing my points because you... aren't interested in discussing this issue honestly. You are too busy playing "look at me, I'm pro-gay haha screw those idiots that don't support gays in the military" games.

Now, if you wanna re-read what I ALL READY wrote, and address the main thrst which is quite clear and has very little to do with homophobes, and why good order and dicipline are important then I'll bother to respond to you again. Otherwise, save us both the effort of your typing and my reading anything else you might have to "add".
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I tried to summarize what you said. You repeat during 20 lines that it's gonna be bad but don't explain why. The two reasons you give are that it will affect morale and discipline/order.

I'm just trying to understand why it can affect morale and discipline. Is that too complex?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I'm happy to discuss the issue and don't completely disagree with you. I, however, will NOT tolerate someone making the ridiculous claims that because you do not have direct experience in an area, you cannot discuss it. It's a weak debate tactic, and I will confront it when I see it and demonstrate it's lack of logic. Or, if folks would prefer, I can play the same game throughout the forum.
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The first time you did it, was fine, repeatedly doing so is trollin because you have the excuse to be an ass to someone. That's not cool CC. And I think you wouldn't tolerate say, me doing that to another poster so knock it off.

There is SOME weight to the argument that if you haven't served, you cannot see the internal issues at play, and if you cannot agree that someone that's been there, done that has valid experience to bring to the discussion... whose playing games?

I won't disagree that a blanket "you MUST have served else you have no say" is silly, cause it IS silly. But it's more so a veteran (oh the irony) poster wasting multiple posts to attack a new guy over something so... silly.
 
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