2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

aps said:

It does matter. I asked because I want to understand why people are making that argument because it doesn't make sense to me. If you don't have a good response, just say so.

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Do you have any military background or experience? That might go a long way to explaining why it doesnt make sense to you.

The military is a fairly testosterone driven component, especially during times of combat. I can guarantee that there will be problems that disrupt he mission. The GREAT majority of soldiers of ALL races object to it. And BTW...next chance you get...have a conversation with blacks and hispanics and make sure you convince them that homosexuals are just like them. Like it or not...MOST people dont believe homosexuality is 'right' which is why consistently homosexual marriage is voted down. MOST believe dont believe we should 'mandate' the behavior as 'right.' And right or wrong, that is a prevalent attitude that still exists and simply will not work in a military environment.

Do we allow ALL gays? What about those flamboyant types who join to take advantage of the education and healthcare opportunites. How seriously do you think others might take them when they are issuing orders? can you possibly see how that might cause a disruption?

What about housing constraints? shall we now house men and women together? Or should no one be allowed to house together? I know I know...its not a fear that gay men (or women) will attack their same sex roommates. But what is the difference between a man and a woman being compelled to house and shower together and hetero and homosexual men and women housing and showering together?

There is the field concern...treating open wounds. Just out of curiosity...last time I checked open homosexuals where still not permitted to donate blood-do you know if that is still the case? Why is that? And what about those questions do you think people might find as a barrier to providing field medical treatment? Oh...I know...it will never happen.

You see...we arent talking about a 9-5 job we arent talking about a job where you go home and have no further association. We arent talking about a job where you can up and quit if you dont like it. Join. experience it. Your understanding might change.

As a career NCO I cared about the safety of my people and mission accomplishment. Anything gets in the way of those two things, I wouldnt tolerate it.

Captaincourtesy gave me an infraction for debating this topic with him.

great "unboased" site you got here...:roll:

BTW the gay issuse is still a HOT topic in civilian society, ALOT of folks dont approve of it and call it a sin, most states do not allow gay marriages and you liberals STILL want to jam gays in the military down our throat..

Why dont you try and figure out the problem in your civilian culture firts before you dismantle how :2wave: the military operates

get used to it. Its pretty pathetic. :doh

Vanskills said:

BTW the gay issuse is still a HOT topic in civilian society, ALOT of folks dont approve of it and call it a sin, most states do not allow gay marriages and you liberals STILL want to jam gays in the military down our throat..

Why dont you try and figure out the problem in your civilian culture firts before you dismantle how :2wave: the military operates

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Are you still in the military? You're talking like you are.

Vanskills said:

Captaincourtesy gave me an infraction for debating this topic with him.

great "unboased" site you got here...:roll:

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Moderator's Warning:

Commenting on moderation, publicly is NOT allowed. You received an infraction for violating forum rules; not taking responsibility for that is your problem. You are thread banned for, again, violating forum rules.

apdst said:

I've stated what I believe the problems will be, based on my experience and my knowledge of military regulations and the general attitudes of soldiers in general. Granted, all my military service was in the infantry, but infantry units are where the proverbial rubber meets the road and they are the last place we can afford for unit cohesion to be endangered, because people's lives are at stake.

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And I've heard the arguments... and to some extent they make sense. I think there's more to it, though, considering that there is dissension even within the military over whether DADT should be repealed or not. I have a hard time with a good military person being dishonorably discharged simply because they have disclosed their sexual orientation.

I trully believe that most opponents of DADT see it soley as a civil rights issue. They throw the, "we need to keep these valuable people", argument in for good measure so as to appear they actually give a ****.

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It certainly isn't as simple as just civil rights. But there is the component of looking at someone's accomplishments while bypassing non-military issues.

I stand corrected, then. Although, I believe this is the first time you've ever engaged me civiliy.

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No, but it may be the first time I've addressed you non-aggressively... probably because you are talking to ME in a very non-aggressive fashion. I tend to respond in the tone that I am addressed in. I like what you are saying, and, in fact, you are helping me to see your position on this very well.

Believe it, or not, soldiers can justify insubordination with damn near any excuse you can imagine, even a leader's sexual orientation.

Wanna know the kicker? It want necessarily be the soldier's fault. It's highly possible that that gay leader could shoulder most of the blame for not properly leading and training that soldier and possibly be relieved for being a substandard leader.

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Well if he IS a substandard leader, he should be relieved. I really like what you said about leadership in your other post. It really hit a cord and makes a lot of sense. In that vein, do you think that if there was a leader who commanded a lot of respect because of his actions and because of his strong leadership skills... and he was gay and those who served under him knew it, do you think that based on his leadership abilities, his men would respect and follow his orders as they would a straight leader? Or do you think his sexual orientation would get in the way... even if he was a very strong leader?

I posted part of this story on the last gay military thread.

I was in the Army with infantry for all of basic. Unfortunately I had bipolar disorder by the time I left, I got a discharge. Being kinda nuts I went for DADT instead of a medical or a psych eval or whatever its called.:doh General discharge.

When it was out, 2/40 men in the platoon had a problem with it, they were open homophobes, like -omg he's gay and we made eye contact- kind-of homophobic. I would've still been able to deal with them had I stayed in. There was a flaming queer in the platoon in the bay under ours on the first floor. He acclimated just fine and had friends, he probably still serves today.

As for the impact on the army... changing the vocabulary on paperwork shouldn't be too big of an ordeal. Other countries have been through this before apparently. Im sorry that homosexuals having equal rights bothers you.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I have a hard time with a good military person being dishonorably discharged simply because they have disclosed their sexual orientation.

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It is important to realize that it is not just telling their commander or some one within their command they are gay. If they at some point in their life posted that they are gay on Facebook, they can be discharged. If some one figures out they are gay(ie, meeting the boyfriend/girlfriend), they can be discharged. In other words, the command will not ask, but if the command gets information that some one is gay, then the person can be discharged.

I didn't know that.

Redress said:

It is important to realize that it is not just telling their commander or some one within their command they are gay. If they at some point in their life posted that they are gay on Facebook, they can be discharged. If some one figures out they are gay(ie, meeting the boyfriend/girlfriend), they can be discharged. In other words, the command will not ask, but if the command gets information that some one is gay, then the person can be discharged.

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Thats simply not the policy. Rumor, supposition, unsusbstantiated comments, attending gay pride events or gay bars, subscribing to gay literature...NONE of those qualify as a reason for being kicked out.

VanceMack said:

Thats simply not the policy. Rumor, supposition, unsusbstantiated comments, attending gay pride events or gay bars, subscribing to gay literature...NONE of those qualify as a reason for being kicked out.

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And you picked examples other than what I said. Supposition does not get you kicked out, and I did not claim that. What I said is that the soldier does not have to come forward and say he is gay to get thrown out.

Redress said:

It is important to realize that it is not just telling their commander or some one within their command they are gay. If they at some point in their life posted that they are gay on Facebook, they can be discharged. If some one figures out they are gay(ie, meeting the boyfriend/girlfriend), they can be discharged. In other words, the command will not ask, but if the command gets information that some one is gay, then the person can be discharged.

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1-If they at some point in their life posted that they are gay on Facebook, they can be discharged.
Not true. A commander would open an investigation. Would interview with the soldier. The words on facebook in and of themselves would NOT be enough to get a soldier kicked out.

2-If someone meets the girlfriend or boyfriend...again...NOT a discharge reason. Hell....I can meet the boyfriend or girlfriend (FAR more likely to be the case) and as long as they dont tell me "and we are having sex" then there would be no admission of homosexuality.

specifically...if the command gets information, they investigate.

VanceMack said:

Specifically...if the command gets information, they investigate.

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That doesn't seem... wrong to you in any way?

VanceMack said:

1-If they at some point in their life posted that they are gay on Facebook, they can be discharged.
Not true. A commander would open an investigation. Would interview with the soldier. The words on facebook in and of themselves would NOT be enough to get a soldier kicked out.

2-If someone meets the girlfriend or boyfriend...again...NOT a discharge reason. Hell....I can meet the boyfriend or girlfriend (FAR more likely to be the case) and as long as they dont tell me "and we are having sex" then there would be no admission of homosexuality.

specifically...if the command gets information, they investigate.

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Facebook is one of the growing ways that gay soldiers are being discharged. I can back this up(posted the link more than once). Sex is not required to be discharged as a homosexual, only being a homosexual. So actually, some one identifying themselves as the partner/boyfriend/girlfriend of a military person would be enough.

Obviously, there would be an investigation, but what starts the process is exactly as I described it.

SE102 said:

That doesn't seem... wrong to you in any way?

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No. There is this rule in place...Its called Dont Ask Dont tell. Itchanged the previous policy that simply said no homosexuals allowed in the military. It allows people to serve with honor. Its pretty cool actually.

BTW...in 20+ years the subject of my sexuality never came up. I went to work. I did my job. I maintained professional relationships. I imagine many ASSUME I was married and heterosexual. I dont really know. Nor do I care.

Redress said:

Facebook is one of the growing ways that gay soldiers are being discharged. I can back this up(posted the link more than once). Sex is not required to be discharged as a homosexual, only being a homosexual. So actually, some one identifying themselves as the partner/boyfriend/girlfriend of a military person would be enough.

Obviously, there would be an investigation, but what starts the process is exactly as I described it.

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My strong advice to anyone serving in the military that is gay and wants to remain in the military...is dont go on Facebook and declare yourself gay.


And for the record...my facebook page doesnt have me announcing my heterosexuality. Funny...

VanceMack said:

My strong advice to anyone serving in the military that is gay and wants to remain in the military...is dont go on Facebook and declare yourself gay.


And for the record...my facebook page doesnt have me announcing my heterosexuality. Funny...

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Your heterosexuality is not exceptional.

The problem here is that gays have this artificial set of limits placed on them that serve no real purpose and can impact their career. A strait guy posts on his Facebook "I <3 teh *****" and it's cool, a gay guy posts "I <3 teh dick" and it's grounds for a discharge if his command learns of it.

And your advice is being given to gay soldiers now. The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network is actively trying to get that word out to gay soldiers and sailors.

Redress said:

Your heterosexuality is not exceptional.

The problem here is that gays have this artificial set of limits placed on them that serve no real purpose and can impact their career. A strait guy posts on his Facebook "I <3 teh *****" and it's cool, a gay guy posts "I <3 teh dick" and it's grounds for a discharge if his command learns of it.

And your advice is being given to gay soldiers now. The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network is actively trying to get that word out to gay soldiers and sailors.

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The problem here is that homosexuals live a lifestyle that is currently deemed incompatible with military service. I dont care if you agree or disagree...that is the reality and THAT is why they have 1 of 3 choices. 1-dont join the military. 2-Join and follow the rules. As many will attest...dont ask dont tell is NOT difficult to follow. 3-Join...do whatever you want...say whatever you want...and get kicked out.

Enjoy.

Redress said:

Your heterosexuality is not exceptional.

The problem here is that gays have this artificial set of limits placed on them that serve no real purpose and can impact their career. A strait guy posts on his Facebook "I <3 teh *****" and it's cool, a gay guy posts "I <3 teh dick" and it's grounds for a discharge if his command learns of it.

And your advice is being given to gay soldiers now. The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network is actively trying to get that word out to gay soldiers and sailors.

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And BTW...ANY idiot stupid enough to post I heart ***** OR dick on their facebook page is a moron...unprofessional...and I wouldnt want EITHER of them in a grown ups professional service world. Schools and colleges would do people a tremendous service if they educated them on intelligent facebook etiquete and how stupid things have a tendency to bite stupid people on the ass.

VanceMack said:

The problem here is that homosexuals live a lifestyle that is currently deemed incompatible with military service. I dont care if you agree or disagree...that is the reality and THAT is why they have 1 of 3 choices. 1-dont join the military. 2-Join and follow the rules. As many will attest...dont ask dont tell is NOT difficult to follow. 3-Join...do whatever you want...say whatever you want...and get kicked out.

Enjoy.

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And that "deemed incompatible" is both foolish, and what is under review.

VanceMack said:

And BTW...ANY idiot stupid enough to post I heart ***** OR dick on their facebook page is a moron...unprofessional...and I wouldnt want EITHER of them in a grown ups professional service world. Schools and colleges would do people a tremendous service if they educated them on intelligent facebook etiquete and how stupid things have a tendency to bite stupid people on the ass.

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I would agree with you, but that kind of attitude is in the military now. As far as whether is violates Facebook etiquette, I have no clue, it was just the example that popped into my head.

Redress said:

Your heterosexuality is not exceptional.

The problem here is that gays have this artificial set of limits placed on them that serve no real purpose and can impact their career. A strait guy posts on his Facebook "I <3 teh *****" and it's cool, a gay guy posts "I <3 teh dick" and it's grounds for a discharge if his command learns of it.

And your advice is being given to gay soldiers now. The Servicemembers Legal Defense Network is actively trying to get that word out to gay soldiers and sailors.

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Oh...and BTW...one last point...your homosexuality is not exceptional either. MOST of us truly dont care how you live your life, even if we disagree with yourlifestyle choice. That we disagree with it and dont particularly want to see society changed to make it 'right' is NOT an indicator of how I treat YOU as a person.

VanceMack said:

Oh...and BTW...one last point...your homosexuality is not exceptional either. MOST of us truly dont care how you live your life, even if we disagree with yourlifestyle choice. That we disagree with it and dont particularly want to see society changed to make it 'right' is NOT an indicator of how I treat YOU as a person.

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Two quick points.

1) I am not gay

2) being gay is exceptional in that it is relatively rare, 5 to 10 % of the population I believe.

Redress said:

And that "deemed incompatible" is both foolish, and what is under review.

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To you. Many that actually have experience in the military disagree.