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Thread: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Well, several people (including two top Generals) have made solid arguments as to why an immediate repeal of DADT could negatively effect combat readiness and your response has basically been, "Oh well."

    You don't seem all that concerned with the effects this policy change could have on infantry units. That's just how it seems to me.
    And several people, including some top generals, have said it can be done. I can look at the changing society(especially among the young), and the changing attitudes of those in the military, and the successes other countries have had, and draw conclusions based on that. Since it is predicting the future, no one knows for 100 % sure, but I am pretty confident that it can be done without sacrificing unit cohesion and military readiness.
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The military is an expert in unit cohesiveness and combat effectiveness. I know that kind of stuff is low on your list of priorities, but I think it should be given precedence over feelings and ideology.
    The only expertise the military uses to effectively maintain unit cohesiveness and combat effectiveness is to ensure that its personnel are too worried about getting into trouble to do something that is against the rules or to make the unit personnel believe that what they are doing is good for the unit, the military, and/or the country. None of these things would truly be affected if the military allowed gays to serve openly. Not in a way that would detrimentally affect the ability of the military to do its job. Plenty of military servicemembers in the past have had to set aside their personal feelings toward some other servicemember, and even other servicemembers' personal actions outside the military, to do their job effectively without getting in trouble.
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Then the gay guy in this case was a bad person. I don't care what sexual attractions you have. None excuse sexual assault. Most homosexuals are not like this. I don't care how long they've had to be living in the same quarters as people they're attracted to. Most homosexuals, like most heterosexuals, can control themselves enough not to commit sexual assault.

    And I highly doubt there's any reason that the military would repeal DADT just to go back to the old way. Most military personnel now days could care less if someone they work with is gay. Even the guys in combat units. My husband has told me he could care less as long as they don't hit on him. And I've talked to several other Marines who don't think it's a big deal and 1 or 2 who are gay. The reality is that gays are in the military. And eventually they will be able to serve openly.
    I don't know if he is a bad guy or not........He was and E4 who was a giid worker......To be honest with you I don't really blame the guy.....We had been to sea for 88 days with out seeing one person of the opposite sex and here he is like a kid in a candy store......all these guys around him dressing and undressing, showering.......At his courtmarital he said he could not restrain himself anymore...Like I said I compare his situation to mine in that if I was aboard a ship with all women for 88 days, watching them dress and undress, shower and sleeping only inches from them I doubt I could restrain myself and I never cheated on my wife in the 11 years I was married while ib the Navy........

    I talk to guys all the time too, in fact the Commanding Officer of the USS OHIO is a friend of mine (he is married to a Korean as I am) and I attended his change of command ceromony on Friday and the crew members I spoke to were none to happy about the possibility of DADT being repealed...Not a lot of happy campers and then they here they are considering putting females on sub......Using the military for social experimentation is flat wrong.......
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There's a difference between single sailor behavior and married sailor behavior. Many single sailors I knew would go to the bar to get drunk and/or meet someone. Most married sailors I knew went to the bar to hang out and have fun. Not a whole lot of the married sailors, male or female, that I knew were going to the bars to hook up. Some were, but most, no.
    I have seen so many times where a guy with good intentions would go on liberty just to have fun and they would get drunk and end up taking a girl home amd then feel guilty and miserable the rest of the cruise...

    If that is the case you were probably not around Destroyer sailors.......I still think if you don't want to fool around then you don't go where the fooling around goes on...That is just me though,,,,,,,
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Well, several people (including two top Generals) have made solid arguments as to why an immediate repeal of DADT could negatively effect combat readiness and your response has basically been, "Oh well."

    You don't seem all that concerned with the effects this policy change could have on infantry units. That's just how it seems to me.
    They haven't made solid arguments. They've made arguments, mainly based on surveys and opinions. None of us, you, me, or those Generals, truly know how much of a change would come from allowing gays to serve openly. History, and as Redress said, an overall changing attitude of a younger generation toward gays and reactions of servicemembers from other countries, suggest that it won't be nearly as bad as most pro-DADTers believe. History, especially, shows that most of any negative affects to unit cohesiveness will disappear within a short time.

    As for the affect on infantry units, let me ask you something. What exactly is it that you see happening? And I mean specifically. Honestly I can't see very many Marines or Soldiers automatically refusing to fight or obey orders as soon as it is repealed. And most likely, the vast majority of gays won't come out to their unit, unless they already have, for at least a while. I think it would even be a while until a gay servicemember even got the guts to bring their significant other to a unit function. Now a couple may get brave and decide that since they can't get thrown out for it, they will flaunt their sexuality or their significant other to their unit. And this is where I could see any problems coming up. Now I'm not really sure what the proper way to handle this would be, but I also see how a milder version of this could be a problem if a servicemember or a few servicemembers disapproved of interracial dating. I kinda wonder if this problem came up after integration. There are people still now who greatly disapprove of interracial dating. I met several while I was on Active. Lessons could be taken on how commands dealt with any problems that may have arisen from incidents involving fellow Marines or Soldiers of a particular unit disapproving of fellow Marine/Soldier dating a girl of a different race.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post


    Your ignorance of the military is astounding. You think the two Generals cited in this article are paper-pushers, but Admiral Mullen, well, he's just a salty old dog...

    I got news for you, chief. Admiral Mullen is a paper-pusher, too; at least, according to your stupid ass definition.
    I'm not talking about Mullen. I'm talking about General Raymond T. Odierno.

    Top Military Commander Reacts To 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Studydigtriad.com | Triad, NC | National and World News Article

    Since when is Mullen the leading combat commander?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 03-01-10 at 04:25 PM.

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I don't know if he is a bad guy or not........He was and E4 who was a giid worker......To be honest with you I don't really blame the guy.....We had been to sea for 88 days with out seeing one person of the opposite sex and here he is like a kid in a candy store......all these guys around him dressing and undressing, showering.......At his courtmarital he said he could not restrain himself anymore...Like I said I compare his situation to mine in that if I was aboard a ship with all women for 88 days, watching them dress and undress, shower and sleeping only inches from them I doubt I could restrain myself and I never cheated on my wife in the 11 years I was married while ib the Navy........

    I talk to guys all the time too, in fact the Commanding Officer of the USS OHIO is a friend of mine (he is married to a Korean as I am) and I attended his change of command ceromony on Friday and the crew members I spoke to were none to happy about the possibility of DADT being repealed...Not a lot of happy campers and then they here they are considering putting females on sub......Using the military for social experimentation is flat wrong.......
    I certainly blame the guy. There is no excuse for sexual assault. Plenty of people spend a lot of time around others whom they are attracted to, and don't sexually assault them. I've known plenty of submariners who knew of gays onboard their sub, and they went that same amount of time and longer around guys that they were possibly attracted to and still managed to control themselves. And women are aboard Navy ships now, and very few are sexually assaulted by either the men or the women who may be sexually attracted to them while they are aboard the ship. It's not like we spend a lot of time out to sea walking around wearing barely anything or having to endure watching others walk around wearing barely anything. I know I spent a lot of time working, fully clothed or sleeping. Sure we had down time, but I don't think most people spend it in their skivvies or nude.

    And I'm telling you that my experience is most don't care really. On my ship, we had gays who were open, and no one really cared. Most heterosexuals won't even be able to tell the policy has changed when it happens, in my opinion.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I assume it would be because their propensity not to follow orders they disagree with is still present.
    And if this is taken away, I fail to see why it would be an issue. This policy change would not only affect memebers of the military who have already come out of the closet.
    Last edited by DrunkenAsparagus; 03-01-10 at 04:45 PM.
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Because combat units are full of homophobic warrior alpha males who spend months is extremely high-stress, high-danger environments.
    I'm going to ask this for the millionth time. What problems popped up after Canada, the UK, and Australia allowed openly gay people to serve in their militaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    What unit were you with?
    CC went through this earlier in the thread. You being in the military doesn't give you the only perspective in the debate
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I certainly blame the guy. There is no excuse for sexual assault. Plenty of people spend a lot of time around others whom they are attracted to, and don't sexually assault them. I've known plenty of submariners who knew of gays onboard their sub, and they went that same amount of time and longer around guys that they were possibly attracted to and still managed to control themselves. And women are aboard Navy ships now, and very few are sexually assaulted by either the men or the women who may be sexually attracted to them while they are aboard the ship. It's not like we spend a lot of time out to sea walking around wearing barely anything or having to endure watching others walk around wearing barely anything. I know I spent a lot of time working, fully clothed or sleeping. Sure we had down time, but I don't think most people spend it in their skivvies or nude.

    And I'm telling you that my experience is most don't care really. On my ship, we had gays who were open, and no one really cared. Most heterosexuals won't even be able to tell the policy has changed when it happens, in my opinion.
    I was in the Navy for 21 years and I never knew anyone who was openly gay aboard the 6 ships I was on or any of the shore stations.....I guess in that time I saw 9 or 10 guys get discharged for making unwanted advance,,,,we even had and incident where NCIS came aboard undercover and after about a month the caught 3 or 4 guys who were having sex.......Actually one guy was servicing the other 2 on a regular basis.......
    The 2 guys were burley rough guys and claimed they were not gay but they got prosecuted just like the one that was doing the servicing.....

    From the guys I talk to I disagree that it won't be a huge thing in fact I would say its 50-50 that it will actually happen esspecially if the poll the troops involved..........
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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