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Thread: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

  1. #131
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    For you, the concept is too complex.

    I'll try to break it down, but I'm not getting my hopes up that you'll take this seriously.

    You have a group of young men, in an institution that is to say the least, built around trust, honor, and bravery. That's part of being a soldier, sailor airman or marine. The more ground combat oriented the particualr job is, say an army platoon close combat infantry unit, or a marine expiditinary unit... the more the emphasis is on being a "man". Now, right or wrong, good or bad, part of being a warrior is being big, tough, strong and getting freaky with the ladies.

    With me so far?

    Now introduce an openly gay male into that enviroment.

    How well will those manly men respond to a "fairy" in their midst? I can tell you from experience, when someone is found to be gay, things get ugly for that person. No one respects them and and they get drummed out.

    But what if they can't be drummed out... what if they are in charge of that platoon? Or that unit? and this person, who NEEDS his people to respect him to carry out the mission... has to overcome that built in prejudice to carry out the mission.

    Will it happen? Slowly, over time eventually the idea that your squad leader likes taking it doggie style won't be a big deal, but for the unforeseeable future IT WILL be an issue. That get's people KILLED in the field. Let's say our Gay Squad leader orders his men into the line of fire and some of them balk. Or even ignore the squad leader. That WILL happen. It happened when blacks were intigrated in. Sure, peopel got over that, but it took time, and it was needed.

    Neither you, nor any of the other pro-gays serving folks have given a mission oriented positive reason to change the system. It's all about feelings, and whats "fair" vs. what's good for the service. Is the COST of doing this really worth the effort.

    I say no, and it's based around saving lives and keeping the military from a needless distraction.
    You know...If I was at a gay bar, it certainly wouldn't stop me from chasing the ladies.

    Seems to me that you've stereotyped military men as mild homophobics. I get the macho man thing that you're saying, but I don't think a lot of guys would stop being who they are just because a gay guy is around.

    Onto your next point, if the some soldiers decide not to follow orders from their superiors....it's not the fault of the gay squad leader. I haven't been in the military, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty dang sure if you don't follow orders from your superiors YOUR ass is in trouble, amarite??

    So, really, that wouldn't be a gay issue, it would be a not-following-your-orders issue.
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  2. #132
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanskills View Post
    I served, you did not. So you have no clue what you are talking about. Maybe you have not been around large numbers of young men, im sorry to disapoint you but they are very crude.

    Young men and women in the military have enough to worry about, like not getting shot than to worry if some homosexual got offended by something said
    You can't assume that I never served.

  3. #133
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    You can't assume that I never served.
    hey weren't you my waiter the other night?

    Great service BTW

  4. #134
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    For you, the concept is too complex.

    I'll try to break it down, but I'm not getting my hopes up that you'll take this seriously.

    You have a group of young men, in an institution that is to say the least, built around trust, honor, and bravery. That's part of being a soldier, sailor airman or marine. The more ground combat oriented the particualr job is, say an army platoon close combat infantry unit, or a marine expiditinary unit... the more the emphasis is on being a "man". Now, right or wrong, good or bad, part of being a warrior is being big, tough, strong and getting freaky with the ladies.

    With me so far?

    Now introduce an openly gay male into that enviroment.

    How well will those manly men respond to a "fairy" in their midst? I can tell you from experience, when someone is found to be gay, things get ugly for that person. No one respects them and and they get drummed out.

    But what if they can't be drummed out... what if they are in charge of that platoon? Or that unit? and this person, who NEEDS his people to respect him to carry out the mission... has to overcome that built in prejudice to carry out the mission.

    Will it happen? Slowly, over time eventually the idea that your squad leader likes taking it doggie style won't be a big deal, but for the unforeseeable future IT WILL be an issue. That get's people KILLED in the field. Let's say our Gay Squad leader orders his men into the line of fire and some of them balk. Or even ignore the squad leader. That WILL happen. It happened when blacks were intigrated in. Sure, peopel got over that, but it took time, and it was needed.

    Neither you, nor any of the other pro-gays serving folks have given a mission oriented positive reason to change the system. It's all about feelings, and whats "fair" vs. what's good for the service. Is the COST of doing this really worth the effort.

    I say no, and it's based around saving lives and keeping the military from a needless distraction.
    thanks!

    So you think that they'll not be respected.

    But aren't there harsh sanctions for those who do not respect orders? Isn't it enough to keep discipline?

    And I don't know how it is in the USA, but we're in 2010 and people today seem reasonable enough not to bully a gay, especially in dangerous situations like in a battlefield!

  5. #135
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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Dont forget the polygamists and cross dressers. You let in one life style choice why not the rest of them? Aren't they people too? Don't they deserve "rights?"
    You mean the Klingers?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanskills View Post
    I was a Marine for 8 years so i think im qualified to talk about it.

    If they let OPEN homosexuals join the military i feel sorry for that person, they will be mocked and teased untill they quit and recieve a "dis-honorable" discharge. OR they will join just so they can sue the military for harrasment and quit with a huge payout. Military soldiers do NOT need this BS, keep your social projects in civiilan life.

    Men in the military is like men in contruction, im sorry but its not homo friendly
    You must have been surrounded by enlisted people.

    I have a close friend from college who was in the Marines (an officer) from 1988 until 2009, with whom I have had discussions with on this subject matter. He's not gay. Your description is laughable, at best.

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanskills View Post
    You are too ignorant to realize throwing openly flaming homosexuals into the military would cause a TON of problems with young 18-20 year old males that dominate the military. Listen bleeding liberal, you will NEVER change the mind or behavior of MILLIONS of young men with raging testorene to suddenly be kool with a bunch of homo's around them in close quaters
    With the posts in this thread of yours, I am ashamed that you served our country. Your attitude is horrible and incredibly immature.

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    No, I cannot. Because you refuse to accept that it's not so much "their ability" as it is the effect on the morale and good order and dicipline that is at stake. To you, this is a civil rights issue, an unfair denail of service to good, honest hard working mena nd women being denied their right to serve their country because some homophobes can't handle the thought of gays serving in "their military".
    First, thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it.

    Second, for me, this isn’t about civil rights. It’s about letting people who are qualified to serve in the military serve in the military. I understand there are limits regarding physical capacity, mental capacity, and what not, but if someone is qualified to serve, he/she should be able to service. I don’t see that as a “civil rights” argument.

    While I WON'T deny, there are hate filled homophobes out there that will never accept openly gay men and women in the service, that's not where the real issue lay, and never has to be honest. You refuse to address this, because to address this takes the argument from your carefully constructed world of "civil rights" and into reality.
    See above.

    Reality check is, that such a move would have a net NEGATIVE impact on the services for an unforeseeable amount of adjustment time. It could take only a few years, or it could take a decade to get things under control. We just don't know.
    You think it will have a net negative impact. But how can you be so sure? I have more faith in the men and women who serve our county that all would be okay, overall.

    You and others seem to think that by allowing a gay person to serve will mean that gay people will be making out in public, making passes at others in public, saying, “I’m gay” in conversations regularly, being attracted to everyone who is the same sex as the gay person. To me, I don’t see human exchanges in the service as being any different than real life, including work life. I mentioned this yesterday. I am sure there are LOTS of gay people where I work. I know some who are gay because I am personally friends with them and I know their sexual orientation. These discussions don’t occur in professional settings. There is no relevance to them.

    You say "Too bad, they just need to get over it" And part of me AGREES with you, however, having served and having an insight into the military mind being a third generation service member, I knwo that a lot of folks would have a very hard time adjusting to taking orders from a "man" that loves another man. It's JUST HOW IT IS.

    When you have to trust the person giving you orders, that your LIFE is on the line, distractions are not needed. People have to trust those above them. There WILL be a trust issue that will arise. There will be issues with good order and dicipline. There will be morale problems.

    Are those worth allowing what, 5% of the population the ability to openly serve gay or lesbian? When you tell me what the COMBAT benefit of allwoing Gays to openly serve is, then maybe we can get soemwhere.
    I understand you have personal experience and are from a family who has had personal experience with serving. But you cannot speak for everyone who is serving and would be exposed to this policy. Additionally, you seem to think that everyone will be informed, “Sergeant Joe Shmo is gay.” The only reason anyone would know someone was gay was if the person decided to tell everyone.

    I don't know about you, but I don’t walk around telling people, “I’m heterosexual.” Do you? If not, do you think gay people will run around telling everyone, “I’m gay”?

    We oftentimes think that all hell will break loose, and it doesn’t. Sure there will be adjustments. Those who refuse to take orders from someone who is qualified to be in a position to give orders should suffer consequences. The worst thing that could happen is that they decide to change the policy back, which I don’t see happening if they do allow gay people to serve. But to say the policy absolutely won’t work is not a good argument, IMO.

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Well what do you know? Those who argue, "I served and thus I KNOW that it won't work," LMAO!

    More than 100 retired U.S. military leaders -- including the former head of the Naval Academy -- have signed a statement calling for an end to the military's "don't ask-don't tell" policy, according to a California-based think tank that supports the movement.

    Retired Adm. Charles Larson, the former Naval Academy superintendent, tops the list of 104 retired general and admirals who want the government to repeal the policy, the Palm Center at the University of California, Santa Barbara, announced Monday.

    104 retired military brass against 'don't ask-don't tell' - CNN.com
    Other speakers, including retired Army Maj. Gen. Dennis Laich said it would help the nation's military to repeal the law. He and 27 other retired high-ranking military leaders had signed a letter saying they supported pushing back the policy, he said.

    Speaking on behalf of the other retired military leaders, Laich said, "12,000 patriots ... had their military service cut short by a failed policy called 'don't ask, don't tell,' and were individually harmed by the very nation they had sworn to protect."

    Laich said the leaders support the comments of retired Gen. John Shalikashvili, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs under Clinton when the law was passed.

    At the time, Shalikashvili supported the policy, believing that openly gay servicemen and women would hurt military cohesion. But in a New York Times editorial in January of this year, Shalikashvili said he was convinced the United States could abandon the policy.

    "I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces," he wrote.

    Military vets, activists protest 'don't ask, don't tell' - CNN.com
    WASHINGTON -- The commandant of the Marine Corps, who previously had publicly opposed lifting the ban on gays and lesbians serving openly in the military, on Wednesday softened his position by endorsing a Pentagon study of the issue.

    In testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, Marine Gen. James T. Conway cautioned, however, that the study should focus only on how a change in military policy on gays and lesbians would affect the military's ability "to fight the nation's wars."

    Top Marine softens stance on don't ask, don't tell' - Politics AP - MiamiHerald.com

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    Re: 2 Generals Wary About Repealing Gay Policy

    Does Ethereal still serve? If so, I think the military would have serious problems with his smoking marijuana. Because he smokes, it's okay to smoke. Because he's heterosexual, it's not okay to allow gay people to serve.

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