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Navy will soon let women serve on subs

You would be right, if the PFT was designed to measure ability to do a job. It's not, it's designed to measure how fit(or healthy) a person is.

Correct in the Navy and maybe the Air Force, but not in the Marines or Army. In the Army etc it is to increase your physical ability to be able to preform at a basic infantry level.
 
Yet, doctors and nurses aren't required to perform weapons qual, nor soldier skills training. A fact that supports everything Blackdog has been saying.

But doctors, nurses, yeoman, and all those people are still very much a part of the military.
 
Correct in the Navy and maybe the Air Force, but not in the Marines or Army. In the Army etc it is to increase your physical ability to be able to preform at a basic infantry level.

Actually, I got the line from the marines. It was a discussion in the military section of the board this summer, long thread that meandered and I have no clue the original topic, but the documentation was very clear.
 
But doctors, nurses, yeoman, and all those people are still very much a part of the military.

Absolutely, but they are not considered combatants or leaders of men. Hence the rank respect and pay without the command.
 
Actually, I got the line from the marines. It was a discussion in the military section of the board this summer, long thread that meandered and I have no clue the original topic, but the documentation was very clear.

"Without doubt, Marine boot camp is more challenging -- both physically and mentally -- than the basic training programs of any of the other military services. Not only are these requirements much higher, but recruits are required to learn and adhere to the core values of
Honor, Courage, and Commitment.
" - Marine Corps Basic Training - USMC Recruit Training at Parris Island

The Marine standards for females are almost exactly the same as the Army with the exception of the flexed arm hang.

Much lower than the men in either the Army or Marines.
 
It's tenuous at best. A woman who can do 30 is not as physically strong as a man who can do 60, at least in upper body strength. However, the level of overall fitness is roughly the same.

You're wrong, because anyone--male or female--who can't score 180 points on the PFT at the male standards doesn't have the stamina for doing the job for extended periods of time. A female soldier may be able to dismount a 90 pound main gun barrel, once, but to ask her to do that, plus dismount the gun itself and tote ammo for extended periods of time, with minimal rest makes all it a different story.

We haven't even touched on the point that stress and fatigue effect females emotionally much differently than males. I had little contact with female soldiers, but I did get around them enough to see them cry like babies, because they hadn't gotten their beauty rest. Or, their ***** hurt because they've been working their asses off for 20 hours straight. We certainly haven't gotten into how they have to go back to contonement, or even the rear, every other day, to wash their nasty crack when they're on the rag. it's an Army regulation, BTW, that female soldiers who are raggin' have to be allowed to take a hot shower every other day. How's that going to practical in a combat arms unit that is 200 miles away from a building with actual hot and cold running water?
 
The males that can't do it get their butts kicked out and can't fall back on the, "they're being mean to me because I'm [write in your "oppressed" group of choice].

So you want to exclude women because if you let them in they'll complain about being excluded?

Yeah, that makes sense.
 
So you want to exclude women because if you let them in they'll complain about being excluded?

Yeah, that makes sense.

No, they will/have complained that the standards are too high for them and that is somehow a discriminatory practice used to exclude them.
 
The West Point Academy.

I have already posted the information.

No, not who says they are allowed to, who says they aren't capable?

All males who pass the basic physical training can. All females who pass with lessoned standards don't even come close.

So let any female who can pass the same standards as males do it. If none can, so be it.

What's so difficult about this concept?
 
"Without doubt, Marine boot camp is more challenging -- both physically and mentally -- than the basic training programs of any of the other military services. Not only are these requirements much higher, but recruits are required to learn and adhere to the core values of
Honor, Courage, and Commitment.
" - Marine Corps Basic Training - USMC Recruit Training at Parris Island

The Marine standards for females are almost exactly the same as the Army with the exception of the flexed arm hang.

Much lower than the men in either the Army or Marines.

This has what to do with what I stated? The Marines require a higher level of fitness, but their PFT is not designed to measure the ability to do a particular job, but overall fitness, just as with the other services.
 
No, they will/have complained that the standards are too high for them and that is somehow a discriminatory practice used to exclude them.

Yeah, so ignore those complaints.

Your answer is to discriminate because they will complain about discrimination. Did you think before you posted that? Because thinking is always better before posting.
 
You're wrong, because anyone--male or female--who can't score 180 points on the PFT at the male standards doesn't have the stamina for doing the job for extended periods of time. A female soldier may be able to dismount a 90 pound main gun barrel, once, but to ask her to do that, plus dismount the gun itself and tote ammo for extended periods of time, with minimal rest makes all it a different story.

We haven't even touched on the point that stress and fatigue effect females emotionally much differently than males. I had little contact with female soldiers, but I did get around them enough to see them cry like babies, because they hadn't gotten their beauty rest. Or, their ***** hurt because they've been working their asses off for 20 hours straight. We certainly haven't gotten into how they have to go back to contonement, or even the rear, every other day, to wash their nasty crack when they're on the rag. it's an Army regulation, BTW, that female soldiers who are raggin' have to be allowed to take a hot shower every other day. How's that going to practical in a combat arms unit that is 200 miles away from a building with actual hot and cold running water?

Wow, you're a bigger dick than I thought.
 
This has what to do with what I stated? The Marines require a higher level of fitness, but their PFT is not designed to measure the ability to do a particular job, but overall fitness, just as with the other services.

It is an overall measure to make certain you can do the basic level of training and preform all the jobs you may be required to do.

You are trying to oversimplify the importance of across the board standards.

I have shown the basic level of fitness for females does NOT stand up to the level of males for almost any job in combat arms, period.
 
No, not who says they are allowed to, who says they aren't capable?

Almost every test and article I have posted you don't bother to read.

So let any female who can pass the same standards as males do it. If none can, so be it.

What's so difficult about this concept?

So here we are back to the begining.

Nothing is difficult with the concept.

Go back and read what was posted so you can see how moronic your statement is.
 
You're wrong, because anyone--male or female--who can't score 180 points on the PFT at the male standards doesn't have the stamina for doing the job for extended periods of time. A female soldier may be able to dismount a 90 pound main gun barrel, once, but to ask her to do that, plus dismount the gun itself and tote ammo for extended periods of time, with minimal rest makes all it a different story.

We haven't even touched on the point that stress and fatigue effect females emotionally much differently than males. I had little contact with female soldiers, but I did get around them enough to see them cry like babies, because they hadn't gotten their beauty rest. Or, their ***** hurt because they've been working their asses off for 20 hours straight. We certainly haven't gotten into how they have to go back to contonement, or even the rear, every other day, to wash their nasty crack when they're on the rag. it's an Army regulation, BTW, that female soldiers who are raggin' have to be allowed to take a hot shower every other day. How's that going to practical in a combat arms unit that is 200 miles away from a building with actual hot and cold running water?

Yes, and I took a bunch of male sissy crybabies down the river too. Whined and cried about ****ing blisters on their hands from paddling too much. Whined and cried about how ****ing heavy the raft was when we had to carry it to and from the water. Whined and cried when they fell out of the raft and they "almost drown! OMG! WAAHHH". Whined and cried about their ****ing pansy ass arms getting too ****ing tired from paddling through the rapids, while I paddled their asses non-stop through the flatwater in addition to the rapids. Whined and cried on overnights when there wasn't a bathroom for them to use, or that the ground was too ****ing hard to sleep on, or that there were bugs, or OMG there's a snake!!!!

So, due to my personal experiences with men in stressful, physically demanding, wilderness situations, I must conclude that all men are sissies and cannot handle stress and fatigue the way women can.
 
Yeah, so ignore those complaints.

Your answer is to discriminate because they will complain about discrimination. Did you think before you posted that? Because thinking is always better before posting.

In every case, be it civilian or military, the standards have been reduced because of yells or complaints of discrimination.

The reality of the situation does not match your wishful thinking.
 
Yes, and I took a bunch of male sissy crybabies down the river too. Whined and cried about ****ing blisters on their hands from paddling too much. Whined and cried about how ****ing heavy the raft was when we had to carry it to and from the water. Whined and cried when they fell out of the raft and they "almost drown! OMG! WAAHHH". Whined and cried about their ****ing pansy ass arms getting too ****ing tired from paddling through the rapids, while I paddled their asses non-stop through the flatwater in addition to the rapids. Whined and cried on overnights when there wasn't a bathroom for them to use, or that the ground was too ****ing hard to sleep on, or that there were bugs, or OMG there's a snake!!!!

So, due to my personal experiences with men in stressful, physically demanding, wilderness situations, I must conclude that all men are sissies and cannot handle stress and fatigue the way women can.

Comparing guys on vacation to military. Wow, just wow.
 
Comparing guys on vacation to military. Wow, just wow.

Well, she's got issues y'know. Baggage.



But, don't we all. :mrgreen:
 
Well, she's got issues y'know. Baggage.



But, don't we all. :mrgreen:

Yea don't we all.

She just has very stong feelings about strong females, she is one. So I can understand even if I don't agree.
 
In every case, be it civilian or military, the standards have been reduced because of yells or complaints of discrimination.

So let me get this straight.

The standards have been lowered. You think this is wrong (as do I). So your solution is to exclude women altogether, rather than simply having a single standard. You want to stop complaints about discrimination...by imposing discrimination.

Yeah, that makes sense.
 
I don't really know what to think about this. The only strong opinion I have is, "Let's be sure that we aren't going to impair the effectiveness of our military for the sake of some social-justice imperative."

This might be the big test. If men and women can manage in the environment of a submarine without serious problems, then they can probably manage ok in any other military setting.

All I want is for the results to be honestly reported and honestly analyzed. If it really isn't a problem, ok.... but if it IS a problem, let's not cover it up and suger-coat it just because the results are not PC.
 
Comparing guys on vacation to military. Wow, just wow.

It's not a bad comparison.

Some guys, including some of the tough guys on this thread, just can't handle the idea of women being strong. They really need to get their asses kicked by a woman, and they will do absolutely anything to avoid that. Including making some really twisted arguments.
 
The sleeping arrangements on a sub are one thing, but I don't buy into the argument that women are not physically able to handle it. Women are taking on roles throughout the military and seem to be handling it just fine.

Some current military women; and some physically fit civilian ones too:

ai092705a4.jpg

030206-F-0000G-007.jpg


SI%20Vonn.jpg

100b46e6-0d67-4422-9f1c-5b07e97991f9_jessiciabiel.jpg
 
The sleeping arrangements on a sub are one thing, but I don't buy into the argument that women are not physically able to handle it. Women are taking on roles throughout the military and seem to be handling it just fine.

Some current military women; and some physically fit civilian ones too:

ai092705a4.jpg

030206-F-0000G-007.jpg


SI%20Vonn.jpg

100b46e6-0d67-4422-9f1c-5b07e97991f9_jessiciabiel.jpg


So, how many combat patrols, humping rucks, weapons, ammo and water does that flight crew go on? Aren't they supposed to get a certain amount of sleep in a 24 hour period? Is it only 4 hours, like in an infantry unit?
 
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