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Thread: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    OK, apparently got to slow this down quite a bit for you.
    Ad hom, nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There are no different standards for different MOS's(called ratings in the navy, at least when I was in).
    No one has said they do. And you say you are going slow for me? OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The only exception to this is for Seals/UDT.
    Which is exactly what I said in an earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There is a test given every one, every 6 months called a PFT, that is designed to measure overall fitness. The different standards based on age and gender result in roughly the same level of overall fitness. So, in point of fact, women do meet the same physical standards as men.
    No, they don't.

    Female requirements Navy 17-19...

    Push-ups: 24
    Sit-ups: 62
    1.5 mile run: 13:30

    Male requirements Navy 17-19...

    Push-ups: 51
    Sit-ups: 62
    1.5 Mile Run" 11:00

    They are not required at any age level to compare. They score the same amount of points for less.

    This whole thing has nothing to do with being in shape either. It has to do with having the physical strength to preform demanding and heavy physical work. Most females in shape or not really cannot do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Wait a minute, you cannot have it both ways. You want some people to have to meet your new arbitrary standards, but not others, based on who you are comfortable around.
    That's bull**** and you know it. I want them to have to pass the same test the guys do, period. That is if they want to do the same jobs in the military such as combat arms.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 02-26-10 at 05:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Um, no.

    When the military began lowering recruitment standards for our current wars, for things such as education, health, weight, morals, drugs, and criminal records, they were lowered equally for men and for women.

    Female recruits did/do not have to meet a different educational standard than male recruits.

    Female recruits did/do not have to meet a different health standard than male recruits.

    Female recruits did/do not have to meet a different height-to-weight ratio standard than male recruits.

    Female recruits did/do not have to meet a different morals standard than male recruits.

    Female recruits did/do not have to meet a different drug-use standard than male recruits.

    Female recruits did/do not have to meet a different criminal-records standard than male recruits.

    The standards were lowered across the board for males and females alike.
    We are talking about physical standards. Please catch up.

    They have ALWAYS been lower for females.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 02-26-10 at 05:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Ad hom, nice.



    No one has said they do. And you say you are going slow for me? OK.



    Which is exactly what I said in an earlier post.



    No, they don't.

    Female requirements Navy 17-19...

    Push-ups: 24
    Sit-ups: 62
    1.5 mile run: 13:30

    Male requirements Navy 17-19...

    Push-ups: 51
    Sit-ups: 62
    1.5 Mile Run" 11:00

    They are not required at any age level to compare. They score the same amount of points for less.

    This whole thing has nothing to do with being in shape either. It has to do with having the physical strength to preform demanding and heavy physical work. Most females in shape or not really cannot do this.



    That's bull**** and you know it. I want them to have to pass the same test the guys do, period.
    Ok, this must be super complex, or you are being intentionally obtuse. The test is not to measure anything beyond overall physical fitness. Men and women are different. Different numerical requirements lead to roughly the same level of fitness. In the same way that a man at 17 who can run the mile and half in 11 minutes is unexceptional, but a man at 40 who can is remarkable, a woman who can do 51 pushups is super exceptionally fit, while for a man it is unexceptionally fit.

    The tests are not deigned to determine specific ability, but to ensure you are basically fit. Once you figure that out, the rest might finally make sense to you.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Ok, this must be super complex, or you are being intentionally obtuse. The test is not to measure anything beyond overall physical fitness.
    Red, I am not trying to be obtuse. I understand what you are saying about general fitness. I understand completely. My point is that general fitness for a female is not good enough for allot of the jobs in the military. Definitely not in the Army in combat arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Men and women are different. Different numerical requirements lead to roughly the same level of fitness. In the same way that a man at 17 who can run the mile and half in 11 minutes is unexceptional, but a man at 40 who can is remarkable, a woman who can do 51 pushups is super exceptionally fit, while for a man it is unexceptionally fit.
    Again this is fine but it will not help a female carry a SAW in the field plus ammo.

    Being in shape is just part of it, not the total picture. Most here are arguing that they should be the same for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The tests are not deigned to determine specific ability, but to ensure you are basically fit. Once you figure that out, the rest might finally make sense to you.
    I understand and as I have explained it makes no difference at all.

    If a female wants to be in a combat unit, she needs to be able to preform at the minimal male standard, or go home.

    As the study I posted shows. Females tend to score 50% below the bottom 5% of males. These kind of numbers spell out the correct picture. And they dont get much better.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 02-26-10 at 05:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    a woman who can do 51 pushups is super exceptionally fit, while for a man it is unexceptionally fit.
    See... I don't get this. I'm not in the best shape right now (but working on it) and I can do 30 pushups. I can't see how 20 more would be 'exceptional'. A couple of weeks of steady workouts and I'll be able to do 50 as easily as I can do 30.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Red, I am not trying to be obtuse. I understand what you are saying about general fitness. I understand completely. My point is that general fitness for a female is not good enough for allot of the jobs in the military. Definitely not in the Army in combat arms.
    And the light comes on. Ok, I see what you are saying. I disagree, but I at least see what you are saying.

    Again this is fine but it will not help a female carry a SAW in the field plus ammo.

    Being in shape is just part of it, not the total picture. Most here are arguing that they should be the same for a reason.
    We are talking navy sub duty here, not the military in general. For 99 % of all navy jobs, PFT is a good measure of physical ability to perform the job. What heavy lifting there is is not done by just one person for the most part.

    I understand and as I have explained it makes no difference at all.

    If a female wants to be in a combat unit, she needs to be able to preform at the minimal male standard, or go home.

    As the study I posted shows. Females tend to score 50% below the bottom 5% of males. These kind of numbers spell out the correct picture. And they dont get much better.
    Performance is the key. Do women perform on the job 50 % below the bottom 5 % of males? If not, the number is irrelevant.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    See... I don't get this. I'm not in the best shape right now (but working on it) and I can do 30 pushups. I can't see how 20 more would be 'exceptional'. A couple of weeks of steady workouts and I'll be able to do 50 as easily as I can do 30.
    A fair portion of men in the 20-29 age group would not be able to do 51 pushups in the navy based on my experience, probably 15 to 20 % of them if I had to guess at the number. I also think you underestimate the difficulty of increasing the number of pushups doable by 60 %. Pushups where my bane in the military, and it took the full 8 weeks of bootcamp to gain the 12 more I needed.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Pushups where my bane in the military, and it took the full 8 weeks of bootcamp to gain the 12 more I needed.
    For my bro, it was the situps.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    For my bro, it was the situps.
    And those where no issue for me, as was the run. Pushups however make me want to cry.

    By the way, as an aside, most people significantly exceed the overall standards, and have trouble with at most 1 event. The few who do have problems overall are generally also struggling with body fat standards. I had a friend who was in this group, and I felt bad for all she went through. She just liked to eat, and no matter how much she did, it stayed on and made everything else difficult in PFT.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A fair portion of men in the 20-29 age group would not be able to do 51 pushups in the navy based on my experience, probably 15 to 20 % of them if I had to guess at the number. I also think you underestimate the difficulty of increasing the number of pushups doable by 60 %. Pushups where my bane in the military, and it took the full 8 weeks of bootcamp to gain the 12 more I needed.
    I had difficulty with the run in ROTC. I could do 100s of situps, and the pushups weren't an issue. But the run kicked my ass because I'd never run like that before. Steady training on it, and I guess I'd be able to do it better. I can walk and hike for miles, carrying lots of weight. (like a kayak on my shoulder, or a raft over my head, or pack full of climbing/rappelling equipment) But jogging? Bah. Jogging sucks. LOL

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