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Thread: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    I said integrated.
    They were "integrated" for the most part. not to many places to hide "Negro's" on a ship is there?

    You also avoid the point of both requests.

    Put up a relevant argument.
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    They were "integrated" for the most part. not to many places to hide "Negro's" on a ship is there?
    Back that up with some facts.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Simply put, what are the benefits to bringing women on board? And no, "it's the right thing to do" won't cut it.
    Personally, I'd feel that any discipline is harming itself by preventing people from joining based on a trait which will not affect their performance. By cutting people off in this way, all you are doing is effectivly reducing your talent pool.

    More people applying = more variance in applicants = more chance of finding the ideal one.

    Potentially, allowing women on subs could increace the average skillset of the career, not reduce it - mathematically it's sound, but in practice it remains to be seen,
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    The same benefits as integrating blacks into the navy.
    As the arguments thus far have centered on (a) physical capability and (b) sexual distractions, your example of blacks is highly irrelevant.

    Again, "it's the right thing to do" doesn't cut it as an argument in this case.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    Personally, I'd feel that any discipline is harming itself by preventing people from joining based on a trait which will not affect their performance. By cutting people off in this way, all you are doing is effectivly reducing your talent pool.

    More people applying = more variance in applicants = more chance of finding the ideal one.

    Potentially, allowing women on subs could increace the average skillset of the career, not reduce it - mathematically it's sound, but in practice it remains to be seen,
    The question you have to answer is whether or not the small % of women who could perform on a submarine would/could increase the average skillset to the degree that it offsets the "costs" of introducing women on the submarine.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Back that up with some facts.
    I have posted facts, what have you posted? Nothing really.

    I have backed up every claim I have made with relivent facts no less...

    Fact: Russia no longer uses females in combat units due to problems.
    Fact: Israel no longer uses females in combat units due to problems.
    Fact: Study in England, shows females in combat TRAINING much more prone to injury resulting in lower standards. Females in English military not allowed in combat units.
    Fact: West Point Testimony which I know you saw.

    And what have you posted? Or anyone else saying it will work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Potentially, allowing women on subs could increace the average skillset of the career, not reduce it - mathematically it's sound, but in practice it remains to be seen,
    The question you have to answer is whether or not the small % of women who could perform on a submarine would/could increase the average skillset to the degree that it offsets the "costs" of introducing women on the submarine.
    On all-women subs? Certainly. On co-ed subs; I would imagine (and certainly would hope!) that people are professional enough not to be affected. If astronauts can do it, I don't see why submariners can't.

    EDIT: Like I said many pages back, I'd be interested to see the effect of removing DADT in such situations. I'd imagine that would be a good acid test.
    Last edited by iangb; 02-25-10 at 03:56 PM.
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Back that up with some facts.
    Here ya go.

    African Americans were present in the crews of U.S. Navy ships throughout the 19th Century. This presence was greatly enhanced during the Civil War as newly freed slaves and a greatly expanded Navy worked together in a common purpose. In addition, African American civilians provided support services that were essential to keeping the wartime navy functioning effectively.

    While we have no relevant pictures that predate the Civil War,this page presents and provides links to a broad selection of images related to African-Americans' service in the U.S. Navy during the 1860s.

    African Americans and the U.S. Navy



    The following pages feature African-American individuals who served in the 1860s Navy, or who performed notable services in areas related to the Navy of that time:



    •William Tilghman (or Tillman), who recaptured the schooner S.J. Waring from a Confederate prize crew on 16 July 1861.

    •Robert Smalls (1839-1915), who piloted the Confederate steamer Planter to freedom on 13 May 1862.

    •Robert Blake, who won the Medal of Honor while serving on USS Marblehead during an action off Legareville, South Carolina, on 25 December 1863.

    •Joachim Pease (1842-????), who won the Medal of Honor while serving on USS Kearsarge during the battle with CSS Alabama, 19 June 1864.

    •John Lawson (1837-1919), who won the Medal of Honor while serving on USS Hartford during the Battle of Mobile Bay, 5 August 1864.

    •James Mifflin (1839-????), who won the Medal of Honor while serving on USS Brooklyn during the Battle of Mobile Bay, 5 August 1864.

    •Aaron Anderson, who won the Medal of Honor while serving on USS Wyandank during an action in Mattox Creek, Virginia, 17 March 1865.

    •Frank Allen, who served on USS Franklin in European waters in 1868.


    African-Americans and the U.S. Navy - 1860s</
    History is cool, ain't it?
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Caedon View Post
    As the arguments thus far have centered on (a) physical capability and (b) sexual distractions, your example of blacks is highly irrelevant.

    Again, "it's the right thing to do" doesn't cut it as an argument in this case.
    Physical ability is irrelevant when there's one standard.

    Sexual distractions are a sign of lack of discipline. If individuals can't control themselves, then they should be discharged. There's no room in the military for someone who refuses to obey regulations and puts the integrity of the unit in jeopardy.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No it does not. It has our government and people to blame. Those who wanted the requirements adjusted down for females. The military is nothing more than a reflection of our society and political body's wishes, period.
    Military standards are set by the Department of Defense, not by politicians nor citizen voters. If the DoD has a problem with the standards it sets, it has only itself to blame.

    Beyond this, the whole faux outrage/distress about lowering military standards to allow women to serve is complete bullcrap.

    Lower standards help Army meet recruiting goal

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. Army recruited more than 2,600 soldiers under new lower aptitude standards this year...

    According to statistics obtained by The Associated Press, 3.8% of the first-time recruits scored below certain aptitude levels. In previous years, the Army had allowed only 2% of its recruits to have low aptitude scores. That limit was increased last year to 4%, the maximum allowed by the Defense Department.

    ...

    accepting too many recruits with low test scores could increase training costs and leave technical jobs unfilled.

    ...

    About 17% of the first-time recruits, or about 13,600, were accepted under waivers for various medical, moral or criminal problems, including misdemeanor arrests or drunk driving. That is a slight increase from last year, the Army said.

    Of those accepted under waivers, more than half were for "moral" reasons, mostly misdemeanor arrests. Thirty-eight percent were for medical reasons and 7% were drug and alcohol problems, including those who may have failed a drug test or acknowledged they had used drugs.

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