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Thread: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

  1. #191
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Here is a good example of one reason I am so against females being in ground combat. (not so much against the sub thing, but it has it's own set of issues)

    Back many years ago I was working at a temp agency. I had a friend April who worked with me at the different sites.

    April made the same amount of money I did per hour.

    It never failed that when we went to a new site she would end up doing something like putting small electronic parts into a little box. It was hot in the plant so they gave her a fan and a chair. I on the other hand was in the same heat in the same plant strapping Bobcat front ends to pallets by myself. Same amount of pay.

    Even working at other company's as a regular employee it would go the same. I am breaking my back, some female is sitting down doing much of nothing for the same amount of money. Same job title, same pay, very different work loads.

    Now jump ahead to the Army. Fat out of shape females were the norm. They could barely do a female push up, let alone a real one. Or little skinny females that could barely lift an M16A2 and fire it correctly. I did not see many females I would want beside me in a combat situation. Hell, I saw many men I did not want to be beside but it was the exception, rather than the rule.

    I know plenty of females that could handle it and did even back then. I am pretty certain Riverrat, for example would make a fine combat solider, but she is the exception rather than the rule.

    I just don't see any gains or benefits for putting women in combat or even subs.
    The same sexist attitude that says women aren't the equal of men is also the same sexist attitude that makes allowances for them as per your examples.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    The same sexist attitude that says women aren't the equal of men is also the same sexist attitude that makes allowances for them as per your examples.
    Seems to me his example confirms that men are not the equal of women, since he had to do hard manual labor while his colleague sat and did assembly work. So it seems to me it is you who are sexist and not promoting equal work for equal pay.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I think what rivrrat is trying to say is that:

    Some, perhaps only the tiniest minority of, but some, women can do 99% of the things men can do. Perhaps that tiny 1% of things women can't do should be limited to men.

    But not based on sex.

    Based on ability.

    If the women can't hack it, then they can't hack it, and shouldn't be allowed into the situation where their lack of strength/whatever puts others in jeopardy.

    Regarding the females on subs bit:

    I believe she is attempting to say that it is unnecessary to retrofit/modify the subs. Leave things the way they are, just change the navy regs on coed situations.

    Let em all shower together, no need for coed facilities.

    If the men get hard-on's, let em go wack off, and both parties should just laugh it off, as it is a natural reaction and only a small minority of men can control it in all situations.

    If a women was going to complain about such, she shouldn't be on the sub to begin with.

    Or...something.
    While it's true that ideally things should be strictly performance based, because we're monkeys we have to sometimes take into other considerations. Especially when talking of aggregated effects. All the examples of performance based argument are based on the individual argument. If a woman is strong enough, then X. K, that's valid. But now let's think of the aggregated case of more than 1 human, the conditions under which those humans will live, the length of time for which they will live like that, etc. It's not just a performance issue now. Sure, there is a tough job that must get done and you have to at the very least be able to do that. But there's going to be more interaction than just that. And in the end, there's going to be sex. So what, they're consenting adults you say. Normally yes, but now they're on a sub, and I'm pretty sure subs are cramped living areas where the usage of near all space within has been effectively utilized. They could be safe you say. Yes they could. Not all of them will...but yeah they could. Reality is that they all won't. Someone will end up pregnant. That's the bottom line. Monkey business. Now you're going to have to deal with that. A pregnant woman can't traverse a sub as well, probably ain't gonna be able to do their job, can't really get off the ship.

    This has to be addressed and is why this is more than just a performance based argument.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I think what rivrrat is trying to say is that:

    Some, perhaps only the tiniest minority of, but some, women can do 99% of the things men can do. Perhaps that tiny 1% of things women can't do should be limited to men.

    But not based on sex.

    Based on ability.

    If the women can't hack it, then they can't hack it, and shouldn't be allowed into the situation where their lack of strength/whatever puts others in jeopardy.

    Regarding the females on subs bit:

    I believe she is attempting to say that it is unnecessary to retrofit/modify the subs. Leave things the way they are, just change the navy regs on coed situations.

    Let em all shower together, no need for coed facilities.

    If the men get hard-on's, let em go wack off, and both parties should just laugh it off, as it is a natural reaction and only a small minority of men can control it in all situations.

    If a women was going to complain about such, she shouldn't be on the sub to begin with.

    Or...something.
    it's just not as simple as that. Sometimes common sense outweighs perceived inequality, and in this case, common sense tells us this isn't a good idea. the subs WOULD have to be retrofit.....at a cost. women can serve in many capacities and there is no reason to make major changes to accomodate the few women who could qualify. as long as other, equal opportunity is available, (pay, rank, etc) there should be no issue with restricting this area to men.

    this is one of those instances where you shrug and say...."life isn't always fair".

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    The same sexist attitude that says women aren't the equal of men is also the same sexist attitude that makes allowances for them as per your examples.
    You still completely ignore the fact men and women are different physically and mentally. Both are better at things the other is not.

    It is just not as simple as you try to make it.

    Nothing sexist about accepting the biological differences.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 02-24-10 at 11:27 AM.
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    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You still completely ignore the fact men and women are different physically and mentally. Both are better at things the other is not.

    It is just not as simple as you try to make it.

    Nothing sexist about accepting the biological differences.
    What was the point of your example?

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    To be honest, if I put most of the guys in this thread arguing against women being allowed on a sub in a situation where they had to be in direct combat with Tashah, I'd put my money on Tash.

    Just sayin'.
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    What was the point of your example?
    Females cannot do the same physical job as men in most cases. Military life aggravates this difference. Actual ground combat aggravates it to the breaking point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No, they wouldn't need to be amazons. They would simply need to be strong enough, just like a man would be. Essentially, it's like this: They should only have PEOPLE on the sub physically capable of performing the necessary tasks. Gender is irrelevant.


    I am.


    Easy fix with birth control


    Many men don't either. Your point is?

    Oh wait... your point is that maybe the PEOPLE on the sub should be physically capable of performing the necessary tasks? I agree. What does this have to do with gender, though?



    No more than any man who is equipped to do it. Just have to hire a PERSON physically capable of performing the task.


    Not all women are as strong as some men. Not all men are as strong as some men. Not all women are as weak as other women. blah blah blah

    Some women CAN do the same as SOME men do. The only offensive thing in your statements is the sheer ignorance about the capabilities of the female form.



    Yes, men and women are different! SHOCKER!

    And, some women can physically perform at the same level as some men.


    Umm.. yes. Would you let a 100 lb man on board who couldn't do the job? Why would you let a woman onboard who couldn't do the job? That would just be retarded.

    Well said.

    Open the door for women and if they are qualified as per your last paragraph, put THOSE women on board.

    I understand the first women allowed on subs would be officers on the larger Ohio class subs.

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    Re: Navy will soon let women serve on subs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Well said.

    Open the door for women and if they are qualified as per your last paragraph, put THOSE women on board.

    I understand the first women allowed on subs would be officers on the larger Ohio class subs.
    They can open the door for themselves.
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