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Thread: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    If by "helping people" you mean "stealing money from productive citizens and future generations to bail out irresponsible home owners", then, yes, I would certainly agree with you.
    You do know future generations are dependent on the poverty levels today right? The more people who end up being poor the less of a future the next generation actually has. It is the reason 100 years ago, the only people who actually had any future at all were people with a lot of money. Everybody else was working ****ty jobs, living in squalor and dying from tooth decay. But I do not expect any Libertarians to actually think past what is right in front of them.

    The best part about it is that you use to be in the military. You know. A group that benefits from all the "stealing" our government does. You know what? Why don't you return to me all the money that the government took from me without my consent? I bet you won't. I guess stealing is okay sometimes.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 02-20-10 at 02:01 AM.
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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    That statement is hands down the most idiotic statement of the week.

    Let's put in context for all to see.

    I asked:



    And your answer:



    So, in your mind, people should never get a loan unless the can afford to repay it without working--meaning they already have the principal saved up prior to getting the loan--just in case the economy takes a downturn and they get laid off.
    People shouldn't get a mortgage if losing their job for a few months will cause them to default. Buying a house without any savings is just plain idiotic. Any sensible person should know that losing their job is a possibility, which makes their failure to plan for such an eventuality an act of irresponsibility; doubly so when they force society and our unborn children to incur the costs.

    And the loan officer who reviewed their application and approved it, doesn't he bear some responsibility? Shouldn't he have been able to see 5 years down the road and predict the borrower would be making less money?
    If the loan officer was wrong then the bank will lose money. If they lose enough money they will go out of business. Problem solved.

    Or the upstart loan broker trying to make a name for himself (and collect some fast fees) by bringing in as many borrowers as possible through deceptive and misleading practices.

    These people didn't plan to lose their jobs or get sick and then get behind in the mortgages.
    Again, why should any of this concern me? I didn't make the damn loan and I sure as hell didn't sign the mortgage agreement. If the deal goes south then the bank and the homeowner are left holding the bag, as it should be.

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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You do know future generations are dependent on the poverty levels today right? The more people who end up being poor the less of a future the next generation actually has. It is the reason 100 years ago, the only people who actually had any future at all were people with a lot of money. Everybody else was working ****ty jobs, living in squalor and dying from tooth decay. But I do not expect any Libertarians to actually think past what is right in front of them.
    What does this have to do with bailing people out that couldn't pay their mortgages?

    The best part about it is that you use to be in the military. You know. A group that benefits from all the "stealing" our government does. You know what? Why don't you return to me all the money that the government took from me without my consent? I bet you won't. I guess stealing is okay sometimes.
    The Constitution allows for a military, which means it's legal to fund it via taxation, which means it's not stealing, since you consent to be governed by the Constitution.

    Anyway, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Are you saying I should have served for free?

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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    People shouldn't get a mortgage if losing their job for a few months will cause them to default. Buying a house without any savings is just plain idiotic. Any sensible person should know that losing their job is a possibility, which makes their failure to plan for such an eventuality an act of irresponsibility; doubly so when they force society and our unborn children to incur the costs.
    A few months...

    What a nice perfect little world you live in where people are able to find work in their field so quickly...



    If the loan officer was wrong then the bank will lose money. If they lose enough money they will go out of business. Problem solved.
    Try to follow along:

    • Existing loans were packaged as mortgage-backed securities.
    • Credit rating agencies overvalued this paper which was sold to investors all over the world.
    • The collapse of the housing bubble caused the values of securities tied to real estate pricing to plummet.
    • This resulted in a liquidity shortfall in the banking system and declines in credit availability.


    Businesses could not make payroll, or stock their stores, or purchase equipment because the big banks stopped lending. In other words, we were all almost totally Screwed!

    Again, why should any of this concern me? I didn't make the damn loan and I sure as hell didn't sign the mortgage agreement. If the deal goes south then the bank and the homeowner are left holding the bag, as it should be.
    See above -- it was a little more complicated then that.

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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    What does this have to do with bailing people out that couldn't pay their mortgages?
    Can you tell us what happens when people lose their homes? Have you ever lost your home? Obviously not. I'll give you a clue. You do not lose your home because you simply can't pay your mortgage. You usually start by losing your job that leads to not being able to pay your mortgage. Given the economy and the lack of jobs there are, people do not go to a smaller house. A sizeable percentage end up with no house. It is how we've ended up with tent cities in California.

    Now that you understand how somebody loses their home it is clear that allowing people to sink further and further into poverty harms future generations more than any kind of redistribution of wealth ever could. The proof is in the last 500 years.

    Can you name a time at which the human race has been more prosperous than in the last 120? I can't. It was only when governments started taking active steps to protect citizens from poverty that western civilization stopped having people die by millions from preventable diseases, having massive amounts of crime and major cities live in complete squalor.

    It is simply not in the interests of the future generations you talk about to have the massive amounts of poverty that not doing anything would most certainly bring.

    The Constitution allows for a military, which means it's legal to fund it via taxation, which means it's not stealing, since you consent to be governed by the Constitution.
    The Constitution also says that it is the government's job to provide for the welfare of citizens in the U.S. - allowing the large amount of "irresponsible home owners" to fall into any further poverty would go against that - do you not think? So what do we have? Your double standard considering taxation. It is not stealing if it benefits you.

    Anyway, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Are you saying I should have served for free?
    You did volunteer. I didn't ask you to volunteer. Nor did I ever agree to pay for your salary. But here, let's replace your quote with this :

    "stealing money from productive citizens and future generations to pay the salaries of kids who couldn't get into university"
    See? I can play the generalizations game too.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 02-20-10 at 02:32 AM.
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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    A few months...

    What a nice perfect little world you live in where people are able to find work in their field so quickly...
    Again, why is this my problem? Why should your inability to find work be my concern?

    Try to follow along:

    • Existing loans were packaged as mortgage-backed securities.
    • Credit rating agencies overvalued this paper which was sold to investors all over the world.
    • The collapse of the housing bubble caused the values of securities tied to real estate pricing to plummet.
    • This resulted in a liquidity shortfall in the banking system and declines in credit availability.
    Now try this:

    • Interest rates were too low for too long.
    • The availability of cheap money accelerated malinvestment and speculation in the housing sectors.
    • The government was subsidizing housing and pressuring banks to service low-income (AKA high-risk) demographics.
    • Americans were taking on too much debt.
    • Americans had an anemic savings rate.


    Outcome: The government-created housing bubble burst and many Americans were caught with their-debt-laden pants down.

    Your solution: Pretend it was all Wall Street's fault and saddle future generations with more debt.

    Businesses could not make payroll, or stock their stores, or purchase equipment because the big banks stopped lending. In other words, we were all almost totally Screwed!
    I've begrudgingly accepted the necessity of some of the Fed's stopgap measures, including the steps they've taken to aid defaulting home-owners. My problem is the unwillingness of many Americans to accept responsibility for their financial situation. I also have a problem with the government's repeated attempts to attribute the housing bubble to a failure of free market economics when it was really monetary and fiscal policy that is to blame.

    See above -- it was a little more complicated then that.
    Hey, thanks chief...

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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas


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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Heaven forbid, government actually helping people! Jeez.
    Umm...NOT government helping people...government running other people up in debt to give to other people...throw a little mopney into a hole...and do nothing.

    I have a genius idea...the government should set up a stimulus checking account...and ANYONE that wants to contribute should be allowed to put money into it. NO tax dollars. It would be very interesting to see just how quickly that account would fill up.

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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    People shouldn't get a mortgage if losing their job for a few months will cause them to default.[/U] Buying a house without any savings is just plain idiotic. Any sensible person should know that losing their job is a possibility, which makes their failure to plan for such an eventuality an act of irresponsibility; doubly so when they force society and our unborn children to incur the costs.
    You know whats sad, is that sounds unreasonable to a lot of people.

    The savings rate in the U.S. has been abysmal and financial planners recommend everyone have at least 3 months worth of wages saved in the event that you loose your job.

    Relying on one single source of income, your job, is not wise in the long run.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Obama to Unveil $1.5 Billion in Housing Assistance in Vegas

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Can you tell us what happens when people lose their homes? Have you ever lost your home? Obviously not.
    Actually, my family is losing our home.

    I'll give you a clue. You do not lose your home because you simply can't pay your mortgage.
    That's exactly why my family is losing the house. My dad can't afford to pay the mortgage anymore. Shows how much you know.

    You usually start by losing your job that leads to not being able to pay your mortgage. Given the economy and the lack of jobs there are, people do not go to a smaller house. A sizeable percentage end up with no house. It is how we've ended up with tent cities in California.

    Now that you understand how somebody loses their home it is clear that allowing people to sink further and further into poverty harms future generations more than any kind of redistribution of wealth ever could. The proof is in the last 500 years.
    I would support programs designed to provide transitional assistance to severely distressed demographics. Other than that, there is no reason to bail people out...

    Can you name a time at which the human race has been more prosperous than in the last 120? I can't. It was only when governments started taking active steps to protect citizens from poverty that western civilization stopped having people die by millions from preventable diseases, having massive amounts of crime and major cities live in complete squalor.

    It is simply not in the interests of the future generations you talk about to have the massive amounts of poverty that not doing anything would most certainly bring.
    Our standard of living has improved for many reasons. Government policies were only one aspect of this improvement.

    The Constitution also says that it is the government's job to provide for the welfare of citizens in the U.S. - allowing the large amount of "irresponsible home owners" to fall into any further poverty would go against that - do you not think? So what do we have? Your double standard considering taxation. It is not stealing if it benefits you.
    If you want to debate the meaning of the General Welfare Clause I'd be happy to accommodate you in the US Constitution Forum. Start by studying Hamilton, as his views are more sympathetic to your interpretation than Madison's or Jefferson's.

    You did volunteer. I didn't ask you to volunteer.
    So, you favor a draft instead, or do you simply not support the existence of military?

    Nor did I ever agree to pay for your salary.
    Take it up with the Constitution. If you don't want your tax dollars being used to pay for the military then you can always propose an Amendment.

    But here, let's replace your quote with this:

    See? I can play the generalizations game too.
    Is that supposed to apply to me?

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