Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 109

Thread: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

  1. #81
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Yeah, and the end result is the same isn't it??
    I'm not following you...what end result are you talking about? Defeat of the Senate majority's bill? That's fine, I'm not saying the Senate majority should have its way on everything. But that's why we have a House of Representatives and a presidential veto and judicial review. The House was elected by the people, the president was elected by the people, and the Supreme Court was appointed by the president. Having a Senate bill fail there is not at all the same as obstruction by a minority of senators.

    As I mentioned before, there are 40 senators who represent 8% of the US population, and 50 senators who represent 18% of the US population. The minority already has PLENTY of representation in the Senate, even without a filibuster. The Senate wouldn't even exist if not for an interest in protecting the minority.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-22-10 at 05:18 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  2. #82
    Sage
    Dav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    04-16-16 @ 02:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    5,539

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Which provisions of the bill, specifically, do you believe are so massively unpopular with the people? The American people, by and large, favor ending preexisting conditions.
    True.

    They favor subsidies for the poor to buy health insurance.
    Not if they're too expensive and/or they might raise premiums for everyone else.

    They favor a public option to compete with private insurers.
    Not if it's too expensive and puts any of the 80% of people who are satisfied with their insurance at risk of losing it. Also the public option wasn't even in the final plan.

    They favor pretty much every provision of health care reform, with the possible exception of the insurance mandate. And no one is going to vote the bums out just because of that.
    Not only are most Americans against the bill, a huge portion of them are STRONGLY against the bill. If it passes, they will throw the bums out in unprecedented levels in modern times.

    What I think the American people object to is the wheeling and dealing of the health insurance bill, and the length of time it has taken for Congress to (still not) do anything. This is caused - once again - by the supermajority requirement.
    That's ridiculous. The unpopularity has been increasing since August. It was already unpopular when the House version passed by a slim majority, with a public option, without the (highly publicized, at least) wheelings and dealings. The Senate silliness only helped.


    Then why didn't the majority of Americans pull the lever for the other guys?
    If they could see the future, they would have.


    The intent of the filibuster is to ensure that the issue is thoroughly debated and everyone's opinion is heard.
    Odd, seeing as that is never how it has been used.


    I'm not sure where you get this idea. Nearly EVERYTHING is filibustered...sometimes by the bill's own sponsors (e.g. the deficit commission). Sometimes when the bill later passes 98-0 (e.g. funding the troops last December).
    The deficit commission was filibustered on a bipartisan basis. The troop funding thing was just silly and I doubt they would have done it if there was any chance of it actually working.


    There is. The presidential veto and judicial review. And a looming election in which a new congressional majority could undo the possible damage.
    Presidential veto doesn't work when the President ALSO disagrees with the public. Judicial review has nothing to do with public opinion. Repealing a bill is more difficult than passing it.

    They have been acting more and more that way in the 111th session. There is absolutely no reason Olympia Snowe should not be on board with this bill. She got almost everything she wanted when she was negotiating last fall.
    She obviously had a reason, or else she would have voted for it. This isn't exactly a bill to take lightly. It would have huge effects, and it's kind of hard to compromise on those.


    Complete unity may have been rare in the past, but it is not rare now. The Senate minority has been moving in lockstep on almost everything in the last session. They even voted in lockstep against raising the debt ceiling, so it only passed 60-40. What if a single Democrat had voted no? The United States would have been in default on its debt, which I don't think is an exaggeration to say would be the most grossly fiscally irresponsible thing the US government has EVER done. And yet not a single Republican was willing to vote for the most basic fiscal obligation we have. This is frightening.
    Not raising the debt ceiling would mean finding a way to stop the rapidly increasing debt is all. Then again, they might not have tried to filibuster it if that had any chance of actually working.

    It is not rare now - or at least wasn't before Scott Brown - most likely because of the makeup of the Senate. The Democrats had exactly 60 votes, and thus the illusion of being able to do anything they wanted. What reason did they have to try to include Republicans in the process? None.

    Republicans would be the same if they were in that position.

  3. #83
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Not if they're too expensive and/or they might raise premiums for everyone else.

    Not if it's too expensive and puts any of the 80% of people who are satisfied with their insurance at risk of losing it.
    No, that's YOUR opinion...not the opinion the American people tell pollsters. A majority of the American people support nearly every provision of health reform which they have been polled on, except the mandate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Not only are most Americans against the bill, a huge portion of them are STRONGLY against the bill. If it passes, they will throw the bums out in unprecedented levels in modern times.
    Why exactly are they strongly against it? And what has happened (in terms of policy, not politics) in the last year to make them see the error of their ways in 2006 and 2008, when they elected Democrats who made no secret of their desire to reform health care?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    If they could see the future, they would have.
    I think it's a bit silly to criticize the Democrats for ignoring the will of the people when they have an 18 seat majority in the Senate which they gained partially by campaigning on health care reform. When exactly are they allowed to govern?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    The deficit commission was filibustered on a bipartisan basis.
    Yes, and some of the filibusterers were the bill's sponsors, who supposedly supported it. There are three possible explanations for this, none of them particularly charitable:

    A) Maybe the bill's sponsors were secretly opposed to it, but were resigned to it passing and therefore wanted to look good by supporting it. Then when a few Democrats jumped ship, they delightedly realize they could follow their heart and oppose the bill. This is the most generous explanation and the least plausible.

    B) Maybe the bill's sponsors truly supported it, but once a few Democrats jumped ship their desire to obstruct and make the Democrats look bad outweighed their interest in good governance.

    C) Maybe the bill's sponsors followed the political winds instead of what they actually believed.

    In any case, the idea that congressmen would never filibuster a bill unless they were really extremely opposed to it, is factually incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    The troop funding thing was just silly and I doubt they would have done it if there was any chance of it actually working.
    It did work. It obstructed long enough for them to stall on some OTHER legislation...even though no one actually opposed the troop funding bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Presidential veto doesn't work when the President ALSO disagrees with the public.
    OK, at some point this stops being a debate over minority rights and starts being a debate over minority rule. The president was elected by the people. The Senate was elected by the people. The House was elected by the people. The Supreme Court was appointed and confirmed by the others.

    If a bill can survive all of those gauntlets and the majority of the people supposedly STILL disagree? Well at that point I say tough ****. Maybe they'll have better luck electing someone who isn't so diametrically opposed to their views next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    She obviously had a reason, or else she would have voted for it. This isn't exactly a bill to take lightly. It would have huge effects, and it's kind of hard to compromise on those.
    If you look at everything she was negotiating on last fall, she got almost all of it. The only thing she didn't get was her public option trigger...and it really strains my imagination to believe she's opposing this bill from the left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Not raising the debt ceiling would mean finding a way to stop the rapidly increasing debt is all. Then again, they might not have tried to filibuster it if that had any chance of actually working.
    Perhaps, but it shows that the minority *is* willing to move in lockstep. Even when it's something important, and even when they don't truly believe what they're saying. This is NOT healthy for our government, especially when we also have a supermajority requirement in the Senate.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  4. #84
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    05-16-15 @ 02:32 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,537

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    so much nonsense

    if harry wants to force the gop physically to tag team the reading of the phone book, he's more than welcome to

    HE's the one who wants to go on recess

    and yes, the american voter endorsed in the last election the broad concept of health care, indeed

    but certainly not THIS health care

    THIS health care's a pig

    ask the people in massachusetts (and everywhere else across our nation)

    obama really blew it

    he screwed up

    he always screws up

    half a T cuts to m and m

    forcing individuals to buy that which they can't afford (a rather perverse view of universalism, no?)

    fining them if they don't

    criminalizing nonconformists, threatening to jail them

    10 years of taxes, 6 of benefits

    burdening already bankrupt states with 200B of mandated medicaid expansion, unfunded

    the doc fix, a quarter T, off budget

    the double counting of another quarter T

    sorry, but THIS bill stinks

    like i said, obama screwed up

    he's QUITTING, by the way

    did you see what he released today in the way of the house-senate compromise he was gonna trap the republicans with

    it's like 10 pages

    there's NOTHING there

    he's got NOTHING

    that's cuz HIS party can't agree, can't get it done, can't come together over THIS pig of a bill

    if they could he SURELY would have TRUMPETED it TODAY

    sorry, start all over

    or forget about it

    obama today put out his 10 page "summary," hardly the comprehensive legislation he promised by his monday deadline

    and at the governor's conference this morning he spent almost all his time talking about...

    (are you ready?)

    EDUCATION!

    LOL!

    talk about CHANGING the subject

    i'm sorry if i can read body language others can't, or if i might pay closer attention to every little goings-on than others do

    but the president himself has QUIT on health care

    i SAW IT today

    The President?s Proposal puts American families and small business owners in control of their own health care. | The White House

    peace, progressives

    be proud!

  5. #85
    Sage
    Gill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    The Derby City
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 10:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    8,686

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, that's YOUR opinion...not the opinion the American people tell pollsters. A majority of the American people support nearly every provision of health reform which they have been polled on, except the mandate.
    Nope, the Dems health care reform plan is NOT supported by a majority of Americans. As shown in this January poll, only 38% do, while 56% oppose it.

    The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that just 38% of voters nationwide favor the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That matches the lowest level of support yet. Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters oppose the plan.
    38% Favor Health Care Plan, 56% Are Opposed - Rasmussen Reports

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  6. #86
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Nope, the Dems health care reform plan is NOT supported by a majority of Americans. As shown in this January poll, only 38% do, while 56% oppose it.


    38% Favor Health Care Plan, 56% Are Opposed - Rasmussen Reports
    I'm talking about the individual provisions of the bill, not what people are telling pollsters about the bill as a whole. That's my point...people support practically every idea in the bill, they just oppose the legislative sausage-making necessary to get 60 votes and the length of time it has taken to do so.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  7. #87
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    05-16-15 @ 02:32 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,537

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    exactly when will the party in power be "allowed" to govern?

    what an absolutely bizarre question

    well, if you have to ask, then i guess the answer is "never"

    make it happen

    or fail

  8. #88
    Sage
    Gill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    The Derby City
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 10:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    8,686

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm talking about the individual provisions of the bill, not what people are telling pollsters about the bill as a whole. That's my point...people support practically every idea in the bill, they just oppose the legislative sausage-making necessary to get 60 votes and the length of time it has taken to do so.
    No, they oppose THIS bill. The American people have opposed this pig of a bill since last September which is the last time a majority was for its passage.

    The opposition has nothing to do with the required votes and the length of time its taken.

    If you have some type of proof to counter this, then feel free to post it.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  9. #89
    Sage
    Dav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    04-16-16 @ 02:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    5,539

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, that's YOUR opinion...not the opinion the American people tell pollsters. A majority of the American people support nearly every provision of health reform which they have been polled on, except the mandate.
    It's not just my opinion.

    Voters Frown on Health Plan Details - Abortion, Proof of Citizenship, Public Option - Rasmussen Reports


    Forty percent (40%) of voters now favor the creation of a government-sponsored non-profit health insurance option that people could choose instead of a private health insurance plan. But 48% oppose such an option.

    However, 63% of voters say it is more important to guarantee that no one is forced to change their health insurance coverage than it is to give consumers the choice of a government-sponsored non-profit health insurance option. Thirty percent (30%) think the “public option” is more important. These numbers are unchanged from early October.
    The fact is that both Rasmussen and Gallup have shown 80% of Americans to be satisfied with their health insurance. Hence, any move that may pose any danger to current coverage will probably be unpopular.


    Why exactly are they strongly against it? And what has happened (in terms of policy, not politics) in the last year to make them see the error of their ways in 2006 and 2008, when they elected Democrats who made no secret of their desire to reform health care?
    That's silly. About as many people were thinking of health care when they went to the polls as those who were thinking about abortion. Heck, lots of Republicans campaign in part with their anti-abortion views, yet something tells me they wouldn't be very popular if they tried, with a 66-37 majority in the Senate, to pass a strict pro-life amendment. It also wouldn't work to criticize the need to have 67 votes to pass an amendment, and claim that Democrats were being obstructionist for voting against something they oppose using a method perfectly valid for such a condition.

    I think it's a bit silly to criticize the Democrats for ignoring the will of the people when they have an 18 seat majority in the Senate which they gained partially by campaigning on health care reform. When exactly are they allowed to govern?
    When they come up with less partisan, more popular ideas.

    Yes, and some of the filibusterers were the bill's sponsors, who supposedly supported it. There are three possible explanations for this, none of them particularly charitable:

    A) Maybe the bill's sponsors were secretly opposed to it, but were resigned to it passing and therefore wanted to look good by supporting it. Then when a few Democrats jumped ship, they delightedly realize they could follow their heart and oppose the bill. This is the most generous explanation and the least plausible.

    B) Maybe the bill's sponsors truly supported it, but once a few Democrats jumped ship their desire to obstruct and make the Democrats look bad outweighed their interest in good governance.

    C) Maybe the bill's sponsors followed the political winds instead of what they actually believed.
    I have no idea why they opposed it, and don't particularly care, but it's almost funny to suppose that there's some political gain in opposing something that you just recently supported and isn't extremely unpopular.


    In any case, the idea that congressmen would never filibuster a bill unless they were really extremely opposed to it, is factually incorrect.
    Indeed. They also filibuster it if that is what their constituents want. Which is pretty much true in all 50 states right now regarding the health care bill, with the possible exception of Vermont.


    OK, at some point this stops being a debate over minority rights and starts being a debate over minority rule.
    And you are once again confusing a minority of Congress for a minority of the public.

    If a bill can survive all of those gauntlets and the majority of the people supposedly STILL disagree? Well at that point I say tough ****. Maybe they'll have better luck electing someone who isn't so diametrically opposed to their views next time.
    Indeed, that is exactly what they did in 1854, which is the last time this happened.


    If you look at everything she was negotiating on last fall, she got almost all of it. The only thing she didn't get was her public option trigger...and it really strains my imagination to believe she's opposing this bill from the left.
    What about Susan Collins? Or Voinovich, who isn't even up for re-election? They are both pretty much as moderate as Snowe, and yet both opposed the health care bill. 39 House Democrats opposed the bill, and probably plenty of Democratic Senators would have if they hadn't been bought off.

  10. #90
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Last Seen
    05-16-15 @ 02:32 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,537

    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    half a T cuts to m and m

    mandates on individuals to buy for themselves

    fines for those who don't

    10 years of taxes, 6 of benefits

    massive unfunded mandates on bankrupt states

    the doc fix

    the seiu exemption, STILL exempt

    the louisiana purchase, specifically endorsed (today)

    no, most americans do NOT support so much crap

    evidently, less than 50 senate dems do, either

    face it, obamacare failed

    start blaming

    blame the rules, blame bush, blame me, blame boehner, blame...
    Last edited by The Prof; 02-22-10 at 06:07 PM.

Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •