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Thread: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is absolutely horrible.

    No, I'm not talking about them putting the Public Option back in. Enough people will be talking about that.

    I'm talking about reconciliation.

    While yes, this is TECHNICALLY legal, this is incredibly bad precedent. Reconciliation is there for budgetary purposes only. Primarily it seems in the cases where a filibuster could potentially cause the government to simply not have a working budget or to institute budgetary changes to increase the flow of money into the government. Even a Democrat, Robert Byrd, highlighted this issue when he was in opposition of Bill Clinton's attempt to use it in 1993 for HIS health care plan stating such a use was out of bounds for what reconciliation was meant for.

    The last time it was done successfully for a "questionable", ie not directly budgetary reason, was in regards to the Bush Tax cuts. At the times Democrats and liberals were against such a use but it was at least a realistic stretch, as the purpose was at least extremely closely tied to budgetary since it was taxes which is directly tied to revenue brought in. Also, while questionable, it was at least reasonably similar to past uses of it.

    The last time it was attempted to be done questionably and failed to happen was with Republicans attempting to use it for ANWR and the democrats, rightfully, being upset at the attempted use and putting enough political pressure to stop it from happening.

    This time it is most definitively NOT budgetary. Any attempts to tie it to a budgetary method would take an amount of political acrobatics so large that it'd be qualified for Cirque de Soleil. This would be akin to saying that a tax on automakers to limit carbon emissions was Military legislation by attempting to tie it to less reliance on foreign oil and then to national security and then to terrorism and then to the War on Terror. Technically right? Sure. Realistically and understandably? Absolutely not.

    If the Dem's actually do this, and do this on such a HUGELY contested bill (This entire bill makes the arguments about ANWR seem like deciding between going to Pizza Hut or Papa Johns after the little league game), especially interjecting an even more controversial provision, then this is going to cause a seismic shake up in the fabric of our Political Culture.

    By invoking Reconciliation on something so far from its intended purpose, and so amazingly controversial, when in the past one of their own members even stated such a use was not in bounds for something similar (93's attempt) the Democrats are opening the flood gate for this to become the political norm rather than the EXTREME and appalling exception they're doing now.

    Will this make it right when the Republicans do something similar in 2 or 4 or 8 years down the line, possibly on something even LESS tied to the budget or even more than just once? Absolutely not. However when that happens the Democrats and Liberals of this country will first have to look at themselves in the mirror and realize this as much their fault as anyones for setting the precedent and opening the flood gates for this. Much like their repeated filibustering in the early 2000's led to the even increased filibustering of the current Republicans that is so often bitched about, so too will this usher in a continuance of this era of disgustingly low politics which serves no one but the politicians.

    If this goes forward as planned it is a dark day and a black mark upon America....not because its "socialist" to require health care, not because of the "abomination" of the Public Option, but because of the underhanded and despicable methods that the Democrat Party will go to force down the throats of the American People a bill that is one of the most highly contest, controversial, and divisive bills in recent memory.

    This is not Change we can believe in.

    This is not post partisanship.

    This is anything but a divergence from politics as usual.

    This is despicable, pathetic attempt at extreme partisan politics and if signed by Obama the man should have his picture in the dictionary next to "Fraud" based on his rhetoric and promises given during the campaign.
    Dead on! I don't think they'll actually go through with it, though. Heads would roll...

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Dead on! I don't think they'll actually go through with it, though. Heads would roll...
    Don't count on that. My money says that HCR will pass. One of two things will happen:

    1) They WILL actually go through with the public option, through reconciliation. Arlen Specter just signed onto the public option, and this is where the HCR bill is headed.

    OR

    2) Republicans will compromise by caving in on other parts of the bill, thus killing the public option. This could very well be the Democrats' threat of their own "nuclear option".

    We will know for sure by the end of next week which of the 2 directions the bill will take. Either way, get ready to bend over and take it. The robber barons are coming soon, to a wallet near you.

    However, there might be a hurdle here, in that the Senate parliamentarian may deny the public option, and declare it is against the rules. Let's hope for that.

    FINAL NOTE: This is the same Democratic Congress that bashed Bush for his "my way or the highway" approach. Seems that some Democrats actually would make outstanding Neocon Republicans, if they chose to switch parties.
    Last edited by danarhea; 02-20-10 at 12:35 AM.
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    One of two things will happen:

    1) They WILL actually go through with it. Arlen Specter just signed onto the public option, and this is where the HCR bill is headed.

    OR

    2) Republicans will compromise by caving in on other parts of the bill, thus killing the public option. This could very well be the Democrats' threat of their own "nuclear option".

    We will know for sure by the end of next week which of the 2 directions the bill will take. Either way, get ready to bend over and take it. The robber barons are coming soon, to a wallet near you.
    That's the thing...I'm not going to bend over and take anything, and I don't suspect the rest of America will either. You think people were mad before? Just wait. There is a populist rage waiting to boil over in this country. Using reconciliation to pass this monstrosity would be an act of outright defiance on the part of the Congress. That is the very definition of tyranny and many Americans are on their last nerve...

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    You talk like Obama WANTS to sink the economy. I have a lot of disagreements with Obama, but I will never stoop so low as to claim that he is unamerican, wants the economy to fail, or any other ludicrouos garbage. Despite my feeling strongly that Obama is wrong, I DO realize that he loves this country just as much as I do. I just think his policies are wrong.
    He loves what he thinks America SHOULD be. Not what she is today.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Don't count on that. My money says that HCR will pass. One of two things will happen:

    1) They WILL actually go through with the public option, through reconciliation. Arlen Specter just signed onto the public option, and this is where the HCR bill is headed.

    OR

    2) Republicans will compromise by caving in on other parts of the bill, thus killing the public option. This could very well be the Democrats' threat of their own "nuclear option".

    We will know for sure by the end of next week which of the 2 directions the bill will take. Either way, get ready to bend over and take it. The robber barons are coming soon, to a wallet near you.

    However, there might be a hurdle here, in that the Senate parliamentarian may deny the public option, and declare it is against the rules. Let's hope for that.

    FINAL NOTE: This is the same Democratic Congress that bashed Bush for his "my way or the highway" approach. Seems that some Democrats actually would make outstanding Neocon Republicans, if they chose to switch parties.
    There may still be some hope. I heard or read somewhere this week that 8 states have passed or added legislation that will allow them to refuse and more are following suit. I will look around and see if I can find an article.

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    It isnt exactly what I was looking for but...


    States seeking to ban mandatory health insurance - Yahoo! News

    Lawmakers in 35 states have filed or proposed amendments to their state constitutions or statutes rejecting health insurance mandates
    What I had heard this week was that at least 8 have made the change and more are still in the works.

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    I find it ironic that all the people who support democracy, don't support it in this instance.

    Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    While yes, this is TECHNICALLY legal, this is incredibly bad precedent.
    No, what is incredibly bad precedent is requiring a supermajority for every piece of legislation, filibusters with no way for the majority to get its way, negotiating in bad faith for months (e.g. Chuck Grassley), and then not supporting legislation after getting one's way on almost everything one claims to care about (e.g. Olympia Snowe).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    This time it is most definitively NOT budgetary. Any attempts to tie it to a budgetary method would take an amount of political acrobatics so large that it'd be qualified for Cirque de Soleil. This would be akin to saying that a tax on automakers to limit carbon emissions was Military legislation by attempting to tie it to less reliance on foreign oil and then to national security and then to terrorism and then to the War on Terror. Technically right? Sure. Realistically and understandably? Absolutely not.
    This bill deals with taxes. This bill deals with spending. The CBO says this bill will reduce the deficit. So how exactly is it NOT budgetary? It's certainly more budget-related than ANWR, and it's a better match than the Bush tax cuts too since the CBO says this will actually reduce the deficit rather than increase it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    If the Dem's actually do this, and do this on such a HUGELY contested bill (This entire bill makes the arguments about ANWR seem like deciding between going to Pizza Hut or Papa Johns after the little league game), especially interjecting an even more controversial provision, then this is going to cause a seismic shake up in the fabric of our Political Culture.
    Yawn. This wouldn't even have been NECESSARY until about 20 years ago. You make it sound like a 60-vote supermajority for every piece of legislation is enshrined in the Constitution (or is at least a time-honored tradition), when in fact it hasn't even existed for very long. Until a couple decades ago, senators would literally have to filibuster and the majority could eventually get its way if they just waited for the opposition to stop talking. Now they don't even have to clear THAT hurdle to obstruct. They just tell the parliamentarian that they're filibustering, and they never have to say one word on the floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    By invoking Reconciliation on something so far from its intended purpose, and so amazingly controversial,
    This is very close to the legislation that Bob Dole's health care commission endorsed. It's very close to the legislation which Republican Senator Scott Brown and Republican Governor Mitt Romney supported in Massachusetts. It's very close to what Republican Senator Olympia Snowe claimed to support last summer.

    Are Bob Dole and Mitt Romney really that far out of the Republican mainstream? Is there any reason other than partisan politics that Scott Brown and Olympia Snowe (and probably several other Republicans) have not signed on to this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    when in the past one of their own members even stated such a use was not in bounds for something similar (93's attempt) the Democrats are opening the flood gate for this to become the political norm rather than the EXTREME and appalling exception they're doing now.
    As I said before, it's definitely more budget-related than ANWR and arguably more budget-related than the Bush tax cuts. But honestly I don't give a damn whether it's within the rules of reconciliation. If it's not, change the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    Will this make it right when the Republicans do something similar in 2 or 4 or 8 years down the line, possibly on something even LESS tied to the budget or even more than just once?
    It would be nice to have a functional government again, instead of one that's constantly paralyzed by obstructionism, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    Absolutely not. However when that happens the Democrats and Liberals of this country will first have to look at themselves in the mirror and realize this as much their fault as anyones for setting the precedent and opening the flood gates for this. Much like their repeated filibustering in the early 2000's led to the even increased filibustering of the current Republicans that is so often bitched about, so too will this usher in a continuance of this era of disgustingly low politics which serves no one but the politicians.
    I fail to see how passing legislation that is supported by a majority of the democratically-elected Senate, a majority of the democratically-elected House, and the democratically-elected President will usher in an "era of disgustingly low politics." Is that really such a radical idea? Why is 60% the magic number?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    If this goes forward as planned it is a dark day and a black mark upon America.
    Hyperbole much? I'm surprised. You are sounding more like Scarecrow Akhbar than yourself.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-20-10 at 07:02 PM.
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    That's the thing...I'm not going to bend over and take anything, and I don't suspect the rest of America will either. You think people were mad before? Just wait. There is a populist rage waiting to boil over in this country. Using reconciliation to pass this monstrosity would be an act of outright defiance on the part of the Congress.
    Do you really think the American people care whether the bill is passed with reconciliation or with cloture? Do you think the American people even know what either of those words mean? All they're going to remember is whether health care reform passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    That is the very definition of tyranny and many Americans are on their last nerve...
    Yes, it's "the very definition of tyranny" for a bill with the support of 59% of the Senate, a majority of the House, and the President to become law. That's pretty much the same as Idi Amin.
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, it's "the very definition of tyranny" for a bill with the support of 59% of the Senate, a majority of the House, and the President to become law. That's pretty much the same as Idi Amin.
    It may not be violent like Idi Amin but people are being railroaded.

    Popularity doesn't make right, Just because a lot of people want something doesn't mean they should get it.
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