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White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

If they do this, the Dems will lose up to 100 seats in the house in November. It will be a complete massacre, and it will take a long while before they recover from it.

I don't think they'll do it. Already 5 Democratic Senators have come out opposed to reconciliation, all they need is 5 more.
 
It may not be violent like Idi Amin but people are being railroaded.

Popularity doesn't make right, Just because a lot of people want something doesn't mean they should get it.

yea, that democracy thing, where the majority elect people to represent their interests - so invalid

i hear you [/s]
 
So, they near an "accord?"

Do we know anything about it? Is it being accorded behind closed doors. Is there going to be an announcement? Are they getting ready for the meet and greet community organizing endeavor weeks coming? Obama's Congressional beer summit?
 
a successful president is expected to implement his mandate, received from the electorate upon his winning the white house

his opponents are to be co-opted thru their certain knowledge that opposing the popular president will perforce bring down upon them pain of the political persuasion

that's how presidents SHY OF SIXTY have gotten things done since our inception

obama's the one who's misplayed every card, he's turned out to be nothing but incompetent, i'm sorry to say

his opponents know that by saying NO to him they'll win virginia

by EIGHTEEN POINTS

they'll take massachusetts and new jersey, nevada, ohio, pennsylvania, michigan, arkansas, nebraska, north dakota, delaware...

regions all around the country

the president needs to grow up

there's no way americans will pooh pooh harry going nuke

you really think the electorate's not paying attention to health care?

that assumption just got run over, flattened by scott brown's pickup

if you can pass it, pass it

politics hasn't changed since capra sent mr smith to washington

no one complained the govt was broken when george bush's social security reform got ripped

why is bayh so mad at reid?

the party was sposed to have its compromise by TOMORROW, up and online

the sunday talks came and went---NOT A WORD

weird
 
Hong Kong, the most free market on earth, requires residents to purchase health insurance.

How you figger that? All the wealth in Hong Kong is owned by like 6 old dudes.
 
How you figger that? All the wealth in Hong Kong is owned by like 6 old dudes.

so, give us some facts to support your differing opinion
 
so, give us some facts to support your differing opinion

Ok, let's see...which country does Hong Kong belong to? China? Yes?

Case closed. :2wave:
 
Ok, let's see...which country does Hong Kong belong to? China? Yes?

Case closed. :2wave:

Do you know anything about the relationship between Hong Kong and China? Do you know anything about it's history? What about the fact that I pointed out that Taiwan requires the same thing?
 
And what of the minority?
Do they not matter?

Can you justify making them do things, just because your in a majority?

what RIGHTS of the minority would be adversely affected by the actions of (the representatives of) the majority?
 
And what of the minority?
Do they not matter?

Can you justify making them do things, just because your in a majority?

The minority has no inherent right to obstruct every single piece of legislation by demanding a 60-vote supermajority. That certainly isn't enshrined in the Constitution, or even a long tradition.

The interests of the minority are already protected under our Constitution. We have checks and balances, a Bill of Rights, a bicameral legislature, and a Senate where each state has equal representation. Our system of government bends over backwards to protect minority rights, so why is a supermajority necessary? That just paralyzes our government.
 
what RIGHTS of the minority would be adversely affected by the actions of (the representatives of) the majority?

Increased taxes, delayed medical treatment, the list can go on.

Who knows what the finality of this piece of garbage will bring?
These people in office don't know and don't care.

It's only in their best interest to make it sound good to plebeians.

The minority has no inherent right to obstruct every single piece of legislation by demanding a 60-vote supermajority. That certainly isn't enshrined in the Constitution, or even a long tradition.

And the majority has no inherent right to force the minority to participate in something they do not want.

It's fine if they want to pass it.
Just make sure only those who support it, are effected by it.

The interests of the minority are already protected under our Constitution. We have checks and balances, a Bill of Rights, a bicameral legislature, and a Senate where each state has equal representation. Our system of government bends over backwards to protect minority rights, so why is a supermajority necessary? That just paralyzes our government.

Surely you jest, many minorities are not protected.
They are routinely ignored for the majority, after all the majority votes in high numbers.

Supermajorities are there to make sure something is an absolutely good decision and not an expedient decision.
This bill is an expedient decision, an appeal to those who do not understand how the economics of medical care works.
And if it fails to produce the results, it doesn't matter because it's supporters won't be in office or most will forget.

They have no need to make sure it does the right thing.

I'm going to keep drilling this every time someone thinks it's ok to ignore people in the minority.

Cardinal rule of a republic.
"Majority rule but not at the expense of the minority."
 
Increased taxes, delayed medical treatment, the list can go on.

Who knows what the finality of this piece of garbage will bring?
These people in office don't know and don't care.

It's only in their best interest to make it sound good to plebeians.



And the majority has no inherent right to force the minority to participate in something they do not want.

It's fine if they want to pass it.
Just make sure only those who support it, are effected by it.



Surely you jest, many minorities are not protected.
They are routinely ignored for the majority, after all the majority votes in high numbers.

Supermajorities are there to make sure something is an absolutely good decision and not an expedient decision.
This bill is an expedient decision, an appeal to those who do not understand how the economics of medical care works.
And if it fails to produce the results, it doesn't matter because it's supporters won't be in office or most will forget.

They have no need to make sure it does the right thing.

I'm going to keep drilling this every time someone thinks it's ok to ignore people in the minority.

Cardinal rule of a republic.
"Majority rule but not at the expense of the minority."

just as i anticipated
there are no rights of the minority which would be adversely affected by the actions of (the representatives of) the majority
this is democracy in action and you moan about it
maybe you need to to reside in a location where majority rule is not the law of the land. but be warned, you would still find things about which you would disagree
 
And the majority has no inherent right to force the minority to participate in something they do not want.

In other words, your complaint isn't with the nature of majority rule vs a supermajority. You only want a supermajority because you don't like this particular bill.

Harry Guerrilla said:
It's fine if they want to pass it.
Just make sure only those who support it, are effected by it.

The whole idea of government is that everyone is affected by it. No government program could POSSIBLY limit itself to those who support it.

Harry Guerrilla said:
Surely you jest, many minorities are not protected.
They are routinely ignored for the majority, after all the majority votes in high numbers.

That's called democracy.

Harry Guerrilla said:
Supermajorities are there to make sure something is an absolutely good decision and not an expedient decision.

We have a Senate in which each state has equal representation. We have a President elected by an electoral college. And we have a Bill of Rights. All of these institutions were designed explicitly to protect minority rights. We don't need yet another layer of minority rights' protection in the form of a supermajority. If the people are that unhappy, they can and will vote the politicians out of office.

How does a supermajority make sure something is "an absolutely good decision"? There was a lot more wheeling and dealing to round up the last few votes for the health care bill than would've been necessary if we had a 51-vote threshold, which unquestionably made the bill worse.

Harry Guerrilla said:
This bill is an expedient decision, an appeal to those who do not understand how the economics of medical care works.

Really dude? A Rush Limbaugh sound byte? Why are so many normally intelligent posters resorting to talking points this week? :roll:

I understand economics better than the vast majority of people on this forum, and I strongly support this bill.

Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm going to keep drilling this every time someone thinks it's ok to ignore people in the minority.

50 senators represent 18% of the population. That isn't enough minority influence for you? We need to allow 40 senators (who could represent as little as 8% of the population) to hold up legislation in all cases?

At a certain point it stops being about protecting the rights of the minority, and starts being about paralyzing the legislative process. We crossed that threshold about 20 years ago. If we weren't interested in protecting minority rights, we wouldn't have a Senate at all, there would be no need for a Bill of Rights, we'd have a prime minister instead of a president, and the House of Representatives would be the sole vote on legislation.

States with two Republican senators represent 24.35% of the population, whereas states with two Democratic senators represent 50.55% of the population. So frankly I'm not too sympathetic to the argument that we need to give the minority a supermajority to protect them. They're overrepresented in the Senate as is.
 
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In other words, your complaint isn't with the nature of majority rule vs a supermajority. You only want a supermajority because you don't like this particular bill.

Not at all, I want a 75% super majority for every bill regardless of who is in power.
Add to that, I want every bill to deal with a single issue.

The whole idea of government is that everyone is affected by it. No government program could POSSIBLY limit itself to those who support it.

Then what good is it?
If someone is forced to participate when they don't want it, that can't possibly be good for the "general welfare."

If it doesn't do good for the "general welfare" than it isn't constitutional.

That's called democracy.

We were never meant to be a democracy, the founders of this country understood that democracies are unwieldy and prone to making stupid decisions.

We have a Senate in which each state has equal representation. We have a President elected by an electoral college. And we have a Bill of Rights. All of these institutions were designed explicitly to protect minority rights. We don't need yet another layer of minority rights' protection in the form of a supermajority. If the people are that unhappy, they can and will vote the politicians out of office.

You don't understand what I'm talking about, there are other people that do not feel included since there are only 2 parties allowed to participate.

Voter turn out during the last election was 57%, so those other 43% are still be ignored with all their different beliefs.

How does a supermajority make sure something is "an absolutely good decision"? There was a lot more wheeling and dealing to round up the last few votes for the health care bill than would've been necessary if we had a 51-vote threshold, which unquestionably made the bill worse.

:lol: The bill was pretty bad before it got wheeled and dealed.
You can't make **** stink much worse.

Really dude? A Rush Limbaugh sound byte? Why are so many normally intelligent posters resorting to talking points this week? :roll:

I understand economics better than the vast majority of people on this forum, and I strongly support this bill.

What the hell does Rush Limbaugh have to do with this?

I seriously question your judgment on this particular subject, normally you catch bad ideas pretty quickly.

50 senators represent 18% of the population. That isn't enough minority influence for you? We need to allow 40 senators (who could represent as little as 8% of the population) to hold up legislation in all cases?

We should let less than that hold up anything.
I don't care which party they are from.

At a certain point it stops being about protecting the rights of the minority, and starts being about paralyzing the legislative process. We crossed that threshold about 20 years ago. If we weren't interested in protecting minority rights, we wouldn't have a Senate at all, there would be no need for a Bill of Rights, we'd have a prime minister instead of a president, and the House of Representatives would be the sole vote on legislation.

The Senate was designed to represent states and was a good idea.

That was throw away a while back and now they are slightly less populists than the house.

States with two Republican senators represent 24.35% of the population, whereas states with two Democratic senators represent 50.55% of the population. So frankly I'm not too sympathetic to the argument that we need to give the minority a supermajority to protect them. They're overrepresented in the Senate as is.

There are other people who have opinions and criticism that are not Democrats or Republicans.
 
if you don't like the rules of the senate, change em

oh, that's right, you can't?

sorry

deal with it

deal with reality the way it is

that's what every other president has done

or not, your call

you are, after all, the president

you poor little thing

in the meantime, on behalf of 41 republicans: NO

please have a wonderful day
 
The minority has no inherent right to obstruct every single piece of legislation by demanding a 60-vote supermajority. That certainly isn't enshrined in the Constitution, or even a long tradition.

The interests of the minority are already protected under our Constitution. We have checks and balances, a Bill of Rights, a bicameral legislature, and a Senate where each state has equal representation. Our system of government bends over backwards to protect minority rights, so why is a supermajority necessary? That just paralyzes our government.

Be careful what you wish for. In a year, you could be complaining about Republican legislation passed by a 51 vote Republican majority.
 
Not at all, I want a 75% super majority for every bill regardless of who is in power.

Why? A 75% supermajority would almost certainly mean total paralysis of the government and eventual bankruptcy.

What's so special about the status quo that means it should be essentially impossible to change? The status quo on any given issue is just one of many possible policies. If it isn't the most popular of the alternatives, why should it be given such preferential treatment?

Harry Guerrilla said:
Add to that, I want every bill to deal with a single issue.

Define "single issue."

Harry Guerrilla said:
Then what good is it?
If someone is forced to participate when they don't want it, that can't possibly be good for the "general welfare."

Why not?

Harry Guerrilla said:
We were never meant to be a democracy, the founders of this country understood that democracies are unwieldy and prone to making stupid decisions.

I agree. But minority rule (as opposed to minority rights) is even more unwieldy and prone to making stupid decisions.

Harry Guerrilla said:
Voter turn out during the last election was 57%, so those other 43% are still be ignored with all their different beliefs.

Do you favor mandatory voting? If not, there's not much the government can do about this.

Harry Guerrilla said:
:lol: The bill was pretty bad before it got wheeled and dealed.
You can't make **** stink much worse.

Carving out special exemptions for Nebraska and Louisiana made the deal worse. Having several senators hold the deal hostage to their personal whims made the deal worse. Neither of which would have been necessary if we had a functional Senate that didn't require a supermajority.

Harry Guerrilla said:
I seriously question your judgment on this particular subject, normally you catch bad ideas pretty quickly.

As I am doing here. ;)
The status quo on health care is unacceptable. And the Republican proposals for health care range from the ridiculous to the trivial. Perhaps there are some good conservative ideas on the issue which I just haven't seen, but they certainly aren't being advocated by the minority in Congress, which has negotiated in bad faith and shown no interest in actual good governance.

The Democratic proposals or something very close to them, on the other hand, actually make sense. There is really no reason moderate Republicans should oppose this other than to score political points. Olympia Snowe and Scott Brown are both on record supporting very similar proposals to what is actually on the table. Outside of Congress, Mitt Romney and Bob Dole (neither of whom I'd regard as RINOs) have also supported very similar ideas.

If you want to argue the economics of health care, I am more than happy to oblige. The United States spends more than twice as much on health care per capita as any of its peers, and gets slightly worse results. The United States has tens of millions of people with no insurance at all, and medical expenses are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy. Many Americans feel trapped in jobs where they are unhappy and/or economically unproductive, because they can't lose their health insurance. And people with preexisting conditions, through no fault of their own, are unable to get health insurance and have to pay through the nose for medical care due to high costs caused by the people who DO have insurance. The American medical system offers no faster service than any of its peers with the possible exception of Canada, and America is not one of the world's leading innovators in medical patents per capita. At the same time, premiums are increasing at a rate which FAR outstrips inflation. Medicare/Medicaid are on a truly horrifying financial track and certain members of Congress prefer to demagogue the issue instead of working to bring the costs under control. Meanwhile hospitals spend huge amounts of money pushing paper since each insurer has different standards and requires different paperwork, and each insurer must negotiate with each doctor or hospital individually. And in most parts of the country, a single health insurer totally dominates the local market, driving out any competition.

In short, our health care system is by far the worst system in the developed world.

Harry Guerrilla said:
We should let less than that hold up anything.
I don't care which party they are from.

Really? Less than 8% should be able to hold up anything? Like if one senator wants a pork contract for Northrop Grumman and an FBI lab in Alabama, he should be able to put a blanket hold on ALL executive nominees?

Unanimity or near-unanimity is simply never going to happen in a body that represents 300 million Americans. And frankly it's not a goal we should even strive for.

Harry Guerrilla said:
The Senate was designed to represent states and was a good idea.

That was throw away a while back and now they are slightly less populists than the house.

They still represent the states, just in a different way. They can be elected by the people, or they can be appointed by a governor who was elected by the people. But in either case they're still representing their state.

Harry Guerrilla said:
There are other people who have opinions and criticism that are not Democrats or Republicans.

Then they can start a new party and elect some congressmen, or run a primary challenger against someone in the existing parties, or co-opt one of the existing parties to support their views.

I'm even less sympathetic to the 0% minority than I am to the 41% minority. Sorry, but if your ideas aren't popular enough to garner ANY congressional support, they SHOULDN'T rule the day.
 
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if you can pass it, pass it

the american people hate it

but if you want to pass it, help yourself

of course, you'd have been wiser to do it when you had sixty...

ah, heck, go for it---reconciliation, baby!
 
if you can pass it, pass it

the american people hate it

but if you want to pass it, help yourself

I'd gladly sacrifice 9 or 10 Democratic senators in the next election to pass health care reform. It remains to be seen if the Senate agrees.
 
Be careful what you wish for. In a year, you could be complaining about Republican legislation passed by a 51 vote Republican majority.

That's why we also have a House of Representatives, a President with veto power, and a Supreme Court with judicial review. I'm all for giving the minority ample time to debate the issue, but the filibuster was not intended as a tool of obstructionism; it was used as a tool to make sure everyone's opinion was heard. And even when it was used for obstruction back in the Mr. Smith Goes To Washington days, the senator had to ACTUALLY filibuster instead of just telling the parliamentarian that they WANTED to filibuster. That allowed the majority to eventually proceed with its business if it could survive the endurance match.
 
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That's why we also have a House of Representatives and a President with veto power. I'm all for giving the minority ample time to debate the issue, but the filibuster was not intended as a tool of obstructionism; it was used as a tool to make sure everyone's opinion was heard. And even when it was used for obstruction back in the Mr. Smith Goes To Washington days, the senator had to ACTUALLY filibuster instead of just telling the parliamentarian that they WANTED to filibuster. That allowed the majority to eventually proceed with its business if they could survive the endurance match.

Obstructionism is exactly what the filibuster was intended for. It has been used for that purpose since the days of the Roman Empire.

So, does that mean that if legislation is passed by a Republican majority in both the House and Senate, then vetoed by Obama you will accuse him of obstructionism?
 
I'd gladly sacrifice 9 or 10 Democratic senators in the next election to pass health care reform. It remains to be seen if the Senate agrees.

Passing legislation that gets your party completely tossed by the people should be the BIG CLUE that the PEOPLE reject this idea. This is a Representative Republic, I guess to you, what the peopel want isn't as important as what you believe they need, they just don't realize it yet.
 
it only remains to be seen to the blind

the party can't pass it

sorry

if it could, the libs wouldn't be carrying on so

poor little party in power

reality is just so UNFAIR
 
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