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Thread: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

  1. #91
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Abortion and citizenship aren't substantive issues that are central to health care reform. Frankly I don't give a damn about them. If supporting or opposing those provisions will get more congressmen to sign on, go for it.

    As for the public option, this is the ONLY poll I've seen which has shown plurality opposition to it. And even here, the numbers aren't horrible. 40-48% opposition on a single poll of a single issue is not exactly the kind of thing that will send a party into the political wilderness for decades, as you put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    The fact is that both Rasmussen and Gallup have shown 80% of Americans to be satisfied with their health insurance. Hence, any move that may pose any danger to current coverage will probably be unpopular.
    If 80% of Americans don't USE their health insurance on a regular basis, why would they NOT be satisfied with it? The whole point of insurance is that most people don't use it and people share the risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    That's silly. About as many people were thinking of health care when they went to the polls as those who were thinking about abortion.
    Then it's not an issue that's going to send the Democrats into the political wilderness. If the American people were so overwhelmingly and vigorously opposed to this, surely it would've been on the forefront of their minds when the Democrats were campaigning on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Heck, lots of Republicans campaign in part with their anti-abortion views, yet something tells me they wouldn't be very popular if they tried, with a 66-37 majority in the Senate, to pass a strict pro-life amendment. It also wouldn't work to criticize the need to have 67 votes to pass an amendment, and claim that Democrats were being obstructionist for voting against something they oppose using a method perfectly valid for such a condition.
    While I'm not a big fan of our constitutional amendment process, it *is* a part of the Constitution. The filibuster is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    When they come up with less partisan, more popular ideas.
    So every government should abandon ship on every policy the minute it drops below the 50% threshold in the polls? This is not a direct democracy, nor should it be, lest the entire country end up like California.

    If the people don't like the policies of the government, they should have voted for someone else, and they'll be able to correct that mistake next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    I have no idea why they opposed it, and don't particularly care, but it's almost funny to suppose that there's some political gain in opposing something that you just recently supported and isn't extremely unpopular.
    So if you're implying that there is no political gain, then you're also implying that they did it for policy reasons and that all of the people who SPONSORED the bill had a sudden change of heart all at the same time. Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Indeed. They also filibuster it if that is what their constituents want. Which is pretty much true in all 50 states right now regarding the health care bill, with the possible exception of Vermont.
    The people get a chance to voice their opinion once every two years, which is plenty. In between, I don't give a damn what they want, except inasmuch as it relates to what Congress wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    And you are once again confusing a minority of Congress for a minority of the public.
    I have yet to see any evidence that the people oppose the main provisions in the reform bill (other than the individual mandate): Ending preexisting conditions, helping people buy insurance, an independent Medicare commission, making insurance portable, etc.

    All I've seen so far is ONE poll that indicates they're slightly opposed to the public option (and many other polls to the contrary), and some polls that indicate they're opposed to "the bill" as a whole...even though most people have no clue what's in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Indeed, that is exactly what they did in 1854, which is the last time this happened.
    I hardly think 40-48% opposition to a public option, which is not in the bill, is going to cause such devastating losses...especially when there was overwhelming SUPPORT for it just last summer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    What about Susan Collins? Or Voinovich, who isn't even up for re-election? They are both pretty much as moderate as Snowe, and yet both opposed the health care bill.
    As I mentioned before, Snowe opposed the bill despite getting everything she wanted, which indicates to me that either A) she was negotiating in bad faith from the outset, or B) the Republican leadership leaned heavily on her to oppose it. I think (B) is more likely, and the same is probably true for Sue Collins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    39 House Democrats opposed the bill, and probably plenty of Democratic Senators would have if they hadn't been bought off.
    (They wouldn't have HAD to have been bought off if the majority had its way, but I digress.)

    As for the 39 House Democrats who opposed it, you are forgetting that it STILL passed, because the Democrats had an even bigger majority, because the people voted them into power. You seem to be suggesting that even an OVERWHELMING majority should still capitulate to the wishes of the minority.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-22-10 at 06:45 PM.
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    tell it to blanche lincoln

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    omnipresent olympia wanted "a trigger"

    i'm surprised anyone could forget, she came to symbolize the provision so

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    omnipresent olympia wanted "a trigger"

    i'm surprised anyone could forget, she came to symbolize the provision so
    Do you honestly believe that she's opposing this bill from the LEFT? That she would sign on if a public option trigger was added back in? That is absurd. Yeah...Bernie Sanders is on board, but it just doesn't go far enough for Olympia Snowe.
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    The only thing the trigger would accomplish is giving the health insurance industry a solid line so they know exactly how far they can push us before we bother to do a single thing about it.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    the president's teeny tiny ten page blueprint which he put online today to try to embarrass the GOP as not having anything (LOL!) contains brand new language guaranteeing against undue hikes in premiums...

    huh?

    i thought his bill was sposed to make premiums go DOWN?

    what's this brand new talk about some sudden NEED to prevent them from going UP?

    typically incoherent

    he doesn't know what the heck he's doing

    the new york times today, assessing these rather strange developments, by the way, sees NOT the senate as the biggest problem

    the lady laments the legislation's unlikeliness in lower house

    Obama’s Health Bill Plan Largely Follows Senate Version - NYTimes.com

    actually, it's all over the talking heads

    THIS BILL IS NOW IN TREMENDOUS TROUBLE IN THE HOUSE

    stupak's only part

    sorry

    you really need to get over it

    you guys are sposed to be in leadership

    dang
    Last edited by The Prof; 02-22-10 at 08:26 PM.

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    then...

    LOL!

    (i'm sorry, but this stuff is just precious)

    (presidentially precious!)

    it turns out, says THE NEW YORK TIMES, that mr elmendorf, the cbo, not only HASN'T scored president pieface's little teeny tiny ten page blueprint

    HE CAN'T!

    LOL!

    not only has cbo NOT YET scored the bouncing baby blueprint, it HAS NO INTENTION of ever scoring it

    as it is entirely TOO VAGUE to BE SCORED

    it "does not provide sufficient detail"

    President’s Proposal Lacks Sufficient Detail for Analysis, Budget Office Says - Prescriptions Blog - NYTimes.com

    ouch

    now, i ask you

    does that even APPEAR to you to be a president WHO'S TRYING?

    LOL!

    you sure better hope not

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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    As for the public option, this is the ONLY poll I've seen which has shown plurality opposition to it. And even here, the numbers aren't horrible. 40-48% opposition on a single poll of a single issue is not exactly the kind of thing that will send a party into the political wilderness for decades, as you put it.
    Did you even read the bolded part, which was the whole point? Because you sure did ignore it.


    Then it's not an issue that's going to send the Democrats into the political wilderness. If the American people were so overwhelmingly and vigorously opposed to this, surely it would've been on the forefront of their minds when the Democrats were campaigning on it.
    That's just stupid. They didn't campaign on health care. They made health care one of many policy goals, and put it in the backseat to all the others. Think abortion, an example which you ignored.


    While I'm not a big fan of our constitutional amendment process, it *is* a part of the Constitution. The filibuster is not.
    And that's the 3rd consecutive time you missed the point. See above.


    So every government should abandon ship on every policy the minute it drops below the 50% threshold in the polls? This is not a direct democracy, nor should it be, lest the entire country end up like California.
    Of course not. But it's silly to criticize a party for being "obstructionist" for trying to block a bill that most people are strongly against. If they don't succeed at blocking it, good for them. They'll probably pick up plenty of seats for their failure.


    So if you're implying that there is no political gain, then you're also implying that they did it for policy reasons and that all of the people who SPONSORED the bill had a sudden change of heart all at the same time. Right?
    Again, I have no idea, but it's just silly to say that there is political gain from it. For all I know it just didn't end up looking like they had wanted it to.


    The people get a chance to voice their opinion once every two years, which is plenty. In between, I don't give a damn what they want, except inasmuch as it relates to what Congress wants.
    We're a bottom-up country. The people get a chance to voice their opinion whenever they want, via mail and email to their congressman.


    I have yet to see any evidence that the people oppose the main provisions in the reform bill (other than the individual mandate): Ending preexisting conditions, helping people buy insurance, an independent Medicare commission, making insurance portable, etc.

    All I've seen so far is ONE poll that indicates they're slightly opposed to the public option (and many other polls to the contrary), and some polls that indicate they're opposed to "the bill" as a whole...even though most people have no clue what's in it.
    Again, the public option isn't even in the Senate bill, but that's beside the point. If people are strongly against it - and they are - then they're strongly against it, whatever the reasons. This will show at the polls whether it's passed or not, but ESPECIALLY if it is.

    I hardly think 40-48% opposition to a public option, which is not in the bill, is going to cause such devastating losses...especially when there was overwhelming SUPPORT for it just last summer.
    What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything about a public option. And there wasn't even a solid bill written up last summer.


    You seem to be suggesting that even an OVERWHELMING majority should still capitulate to the wishes of the minority.
    It depends on how overwhelming a majority, how unified the minority is in opposing it, and how unified the majority is in supporting it, and a bunch of other factors.

  9. #99
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Did you even read the bolded part, which was the whole point? Because you sure did ignore it.
    Oh, the thing about guaranteeing people can keep their insurance? A couple points:

    A) The government has no ability to make such a guarantee. Even if the government does nothing, the health insurance industry will change and people will lose their insurance.
    B) Asking if people prefer the public option or a guarantee that they can keep their insurance is a ridiculous question. It's like asking people if they prefer education vouchers or discounted school lunches. The two issues have absolutely nothing to do with each other, aside from the fact that they both relate to the same broad policy topic.
    C) If you are using this particular data point as evidence that people oppose this health plan, I must confess you've completely baffled me. Are you saying that people oppose the health bill because it doesn't include a guarantee that they can keep their insurance...which they claimed they supported more than a public option...which also isn't in the bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    That's just stupid. They didn't campaign on health care. They made health care one of many policy goals, and put it in the backseat to all the others.
    I really don't know what you're talking about. The Democrats campaigned heavily on health care reform, especially in 2008. It was the primary reason I voted for Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    And that's the 3rd consecutive time you missed the point. See above.
    Mmmkay, this doesn't actually say anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Of course not. But it's silly to criticize a party for being "obstructionist" for trying to block a bill that most people are strongly against.
    I'm not criticizing them for being obstructionist on this particular bill. If they don't support it, they shouldn't vote for it. My complaint lies with the fact that 41 senators should NOT be able to kill health care reform, and the fact that this particular Senate minority has marched in lockstep to oppose even the most basic aspects of good governance, like not defaulting on the debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    We're a bottom-up country. The people get a chance to voice their opinion whenever they want, via mail and email to their congressman.
    And the congressman is under no obligation (moral or legal) to listen to them, nor should he be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    Again, the public option isn't even in the Senate bill, but that's beside the point. If people are strongly against it - and they are - then they're strongly against it, whatever the reasons.
    No. Depending on the reason they are against it, it may or may not be a political issue in November if it's passed now. And there is good reason to think that it WON'T be a major problem if it's passed, because people voted for Democrats in 2006 and 2008 even though (or perhaps because) they CAMPAIGNED on this issue, and because health care reform polled quite well as recently as last summer.

    So once again, what has changed in terms of policy (not politics) in the last year to make the voters see the error of their ways? Is our health care system suddenly on a more sustainable track than it was a year ago, thus rendering reform unnecessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    This will show at the polls whether it's passed or not, but ESPECIALLY if it is.
    That doesn't make any sense. If the American people are so opposed to it (because they've suddenly seen the error of their ways in 2006 and 2008, and not because they're seeing constant headlines about special deals with congressmen to vote for it), it logically stands to reason that passing it would be a better political option. At least the people who support the bill will support them then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything about a public option. And there wasn't even a solid bill written up last summer.
    You get remarkably testy. Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav
    It depends on how overwhelming a majority, how unified the minority is in opposing it, and how unified the majority is in supporting it, and a bunch of other factors.
    I agree. So if the majority is small or not particularly unified, and the minority is large and very unified, then I agree that the bill shouldn't be passed. Interestingly, we have the technology to measure the size of the majority and the degree to which each side is unified. I believe it's called taking a vote, and letting the majority rule.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-22-10 at 10:23 PM.
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    Re: White House: Dems near accord on health care bill

    Let me just say this: I'm perfectly fine with the Senate trying to pass an unpopular bill. Heck, people like Reid will probably lose re-election no matter what happens, so why not just go crazy and do whatever they want, right? Just don't complain if your opponents do all in their power to stop you, including a procedure to require 60 votes that you have every power to stop - the "nuclear option". Also reconciliation, which I suspect that if they tried, they would suddenly find that they don't have the votes for it (already 5 Dems are against it). If they do pass it I suspect an unprecedented catastrophy in November, but this is impossible to prove so we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.

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