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Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

justabubba said:
"baseless accusation" seems a very strong description for a situation where the identified perps insist that the photos/videos we saw of them are actually their "stolen" identities. that even tho it appears we saw them, that was not they that we saw
being able to identify the assassination team from the videos would seem to provide basis to the allegations of mossad involvement in this covert act
or maybe we should not question how seven individuals with mossad connections just happened to have their identities stolen
what organization would have had the motivation and capability to carry out this murder of a hamas operative where that organization also sought to give the "false" appearance that it was a mossad action
maybe there is a good explanation why this was not a mossad hit ... to date, that argument has not been proferred
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I think the point here is that Mossad has the three conditions for having done it: means, motive and opportunity.

The fact that they refuse to confirm or deny their involvement means nothing. They never do. That they don't deny it, irrespective of their policy, gives credence to the accusation.

The stolen passports included several stolen from Israelis with dual Israeli/British nationality domiciled in Israel. More strong circumstantial evidence. That warnings were received that the passports had been stolen, possibly falsified some time before the attack apparently came from intelligence sources and flagged that Mossad may have been involved.

British Intelligence is not likely to reveal its sources nor point a finger definitively at Israel unless they are 100% certain, perhaps not even then. If Israeli is getting agitated at the fact that the World is not believing the ingenuousness of their response, they should look at the way they've been doing business in the past and stop flying around the World behaving like a malignant Jason Bourne.
 
donsutherland1 said:
The U.S., like any other nation, has an inherent right of self-defense. Throughout its history, when involved in conflict, it has targeted enemy combatants. No nation, no matter how liberal (classical liberal not the political definition) its values has ever adopted a posture that it could not use deadly force against enemy combatants. Indeed, such a posture would be a suicide pact, as it would free enemy combatants to use deadly force against it, while it refrained from responding in kind in self-defense.
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I have no issue with the US defending itself, I wasn't even referring solely to US activity, but NATO in general.

My point is that the use of attack drones is not as accurate or foolproof as we've been led to believe. The high level of civilian casualties in these attacks gives succour and reason to those enemies (and others) who say, "there's no difference between a suicide bombing of a military base or police station, targeted directly at the enemy with innocent civilians getting caught by accident and drone attacks on private houses where insurgent leaders may be lodging along with women and children". We've all read these kinds of statements.

Perhaps it's time for NATO in Afghanistan to stop using attack drones and concentrate on gaining land victories against the Taliban.
 
Andalublue said:
We've all read these kinds of statements.

.
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I think the question here really isn't so much whether we have read them, but whether or not we have written them. Considering the large number of posters who have indulged in sweeping moral equivalences of just this nature, I appreciate anything one might offer to distinguish between their own views and those to which they refer.
 
Gardener said:
I think the question here really isn't so much whether we have read them, but whether or not we have written them. Considering the large number of posters who have indulged in sweeping moral equivalences of just this nature, I appreciate anything one might offer to distinguish between their own views and those to which they refer.
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I feel that those statements have some moral validity when the death count of innocents continues to climb. I don't hold, I'm repeating myself from previous posts here, that there is a moral equivalence between the NATO actions and those of indiscriminate fundamentalist Islamist activity.

Could I be clearer? I don't think NATO are as culpable for the loss of innocent lives as the insurgents! I believe NATO is trying to achieve something laudable in Afghanistan but is making too many mistakes and too many ordinary Afghans are getting killed as a result.

If you still want to misrepresent me as an enemy of the West and a friend of Islamist terrorists, go right ahead. I'm just not going to kow-tow to some simplistic, West=all good, don't criticise: Islam=bad, they've all got it coming to them.
 
Andalublue said:
I think the point here is that Mossad has the three conditions for having done it: means, motive and opportunity.

The fact that they refuse to confirm or deny their involvement means nothing. They never do. That they don't deny it, irrespective of their policy, gives credence to the accusation.

The stolen passports included several stolen from Israelis with dual Israeli/British nationality domiciled in Israel. More strong circumstantial evidence. That warnings were received that the passports had been stolen, possibly falsified some time before the attack apparently came from intelligence sources and flagged that Mossad may have been involved.

British Intelligence is not likely to reveal its sources nor point a finger definitively at Israel unless they are 100% certain, perhaps not even then. If Israeli is getting agitated at the fact that the World is not believing the ingenuousness of their response, they should look at the way they've been doing business in the past and stop flying around the World behaving like a malignant Jason Bourne.
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In order for an accusation to be made, a true basis must be formed.

Right now, all we have knowledge of is:

-Some of the passports used were British.
-Some of the names taken for the identities were British-Israelis dual nationality citizens.
-Some of the passports used were Irish.
-One French passport was used.
-One German passport was used.
-Most of the phone lines used were based in Austria.
-American credit cards were used.

That is everything that is currently known to us on the case.
Due to the above, the rational conclusion that will be drawn is that right now nothing points out to one of the specific countries above, with Britain being related to both the passports and the citizenship of the "stolen identities", leading the chart.

Since that is the case, one cannot simply blame the Mossad for the hit out of the blue, and doing so will be an act of pure irrationality.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that whoever it was was not related to any of the above countries, since leaving traces to the country of your origin would be one of the issues that is mostly avoided here.
Hence, the fact that British, German, French, Irish passports, American credit cards, British-Israeli names and Austrian phone-lines were used, could act as a counter-evidence to the claim that any of the above countries has anything to do with it.

All that doesn't matter, of course, since the identity behind the assassination of the head-terrorist would be most likely hidden for eternity from the public's eyes, and the investigation would bear no fruit.

Hopefully we'll see more terrorist assassinations of that kind in the future, it consists of both entertainment and justice.
 
Andalublue said:
I feel that those statements have some moral validity when the death count of innocents continues to climb. I don't hold, I'm repeating myself from previous posts here, that there is a moral equivalence between the NATO actions and those of indiscriminate fundamentalist Islamist activity.

Could I be clearer? I don't think NATO are as culpable for the loss of innocent lives as the insurgents! I believe NATO is trying to achieve something laudable in Afghanistan but is making too many mistakes and too many ordinary Afghans are getting killed as a result.

If you still want to misrepresent me as an enemy of the West and a friend of Islamist terrorists, go right ahead. I'm just not going to kow-tow to some simplistic, West=all good, don't criticise: Islam=bad, they've all got it coming to them.
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I haven't misrepresented you at all since I certainly made no claims as to the positions you hold.
 
Andalublue said:
Perhaps it's time for NATO in Afghanistan to stop using attack drones and concentrate on gaining land victories against the Taliban.
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Drones have been effective in eliminating many high-value targets. I'm with George Will on this one:

U.S. forces are being increased by 21,000, to 68,000, bringing the coalition total to 110,000. About 9,000 are from Britain, where support for the war is waning. Counterinsurgency theory concerning the time and the ratio of forces required to protect the population indicates that, nationwide, Afghanistan would need hundreds of thousands of coalition troops, perhaps for a decade or more. That is inconceivable.

So, instead, forces should be substantially reduced to serve a comprehensively revised policy: America should do only what can be done from offshore, using intelligence, drones, cruise missiles, airstrikes and small, potent Special Forces units, concentrating on the porous 1,500-mile border with Pakistan, a nation that actually matters.

George F. Will - Time for the U.S. to Get Out of Afghanistan - washingtonpost.com
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Whoever killed the Hamas terrorist is a hero in my book. I don't see why the world is so angry considering this guy works for an organization that is bent on killing millions and enslaving their people into a theocratic dictatorship. If anyone is going to charge Israel with any crime it should be for not completely eradicating Hamas during Operation Cast Lead. That is the true crime.
 
Andalublue said:
Perhaps it's time for NATO in Afghanistan to stop using attack drones and concentrate on gaining land victories against the Taliban.
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Drones are the 21st-century weapons.

Every advanced military in the world makes use of them due to their strategic and tactical importance and the dramatic advantage they provide to the users in the battlefield.

The biggest advantage provided by the drones is the fact that soldier's lives are being spared the risk that is to engage in an assault task when you can instead simply send a drone in and take the enemies out.
 
digsbe said:
Whoever killed the Hamas terrorist is a hero in my book. I don't see why the world is so angry considering this guy works for an organization that is bent on killing millions and enslaving their people into a theocratic dictatorship. If anyone is going to charge Israel with any crime it should be for not completely eradicating Hamas during Operation Cast Lead. That is the true crime.
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Be fair, they gave it a pretty good go. Would you like to have seen them kill all Hamas supporters? All 440,000 of them?
 
Andalublue said:
Be fair, they gave it a pretty good go. Would you like to have seen them kill all Hamas supporters? All 440,000 of them?
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He was obviously referring to Hamas, which consists of 25,000-30,000 members, and not of all of their supporters.

And I believe Hamas has more supporters than merely 440,000, perhaps you weren't counting the ones from overseas.
 
Andalublue said:
Be fair, they gave it a pretty good go. Would you like to have seen them kill all Hamas supporters? All 440,000 of them?
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I would like to see all the none violent ones (if they exist) jailed, those that support them politically technically have done nothing illegal. Those who are apart of the organization should be jailed or executed. To be fair would mean to be just, and to be just would mean to destroy the organization that is bent on killing millions and enslaving millions of others. It is not justice to allow Hamas to exist and fire rockets at civilians while preaching a racist, discriminatory, and hateful message.
 
Apocalypse said:
In order for an accusation to be made, a true basis must be formed.

Right now, all we have knowledge of is:

-Some of the passports used were British.
-Some of the names taken for the identities were British-Israelis dual nationality citizens.
-Some of the passports used were Irish.
-One French passport was used.
-One German passport was used.
-Most of the phone lines used were based in Austria.
-American credit cards were used.

That is everything that is currently known to us on the case.
Due to the above, the rational conclusion that will be drawn is that right now nothing points out to one of the specific countries above, with Britain being related to both the passports and the citizenship of the "stolen identities", leading the chart.

Since that is the case, one cannot simply blame the Mossad for the hit out of the blue, and doing so will be an act of pure irrationality.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that whoever it was was not related to any of the above countries, since leaving traces to the country of your origin would be one of the issues that is mostly avoided here.
Hence, the fact that British, German, French, Irish passports, American credit cards, British-Israeli names and Austrian phone-lines were used, could act as a counter-evidence to the claim that any of the above countries has anything to do with it.

All that doesn't matter, of course, since the identity behind the assassination of the head-terrorist would be most likely hidden for eternity from the public's eyes, and the investigation would bear no fruit.

Hopefully we'll see more terrorist assassinations of that kind in the future, it consists of both entertainment and justice.
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If a hundred innocents die to take out even one terroist, it is worth it.....
I find it commendable that anti terrorism forces even fret about it....;)
 
Apocalypse said:
In order for an accusation to be made, a true basis must be formed.

Right now, all we have knowledge of is:

-Some of the passports used were British.
-Some of the names taken for the identities were British-Israelis dual nationality citizens.
-Some of the passports used were Irish.
-One French passport was used.
-One German passport was used.
-Most of the phone lines used were based in Austria.
-American credit cards were used.

That is everything that is currently known to us on the case.
Due to the above, the rational conclusion that will be drawn is that right now nothing points out to one of the specific countries above, with Britain being related to both the passports and the citizenship of the "stolen identities", leading the chart.

Since that is the case, one cannot simply blame the Mossad for the hit out of the blue, and doing so will be an act of pure irrationality.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that whoever it was was not related to any of the above countries, since leaving traces to the country of your origin would be one of the issues that is mostly avoided here.
Hence, the fact that British, German, French, Irish passports, American credit cards, British-Israeli names and Austrian phone-lines were used, could act as a counter-evidence to the claim that any of the above countries has anything to do with it.

All that doesn't matter, of course, since the identity behind the assassination of the head-terrorist would be most likely hidden for eternity from the public's eyes, and the investigation would bear no fruit.

Hopefully we'll see more terrorist assassinations of that kind in the future, it consists of both entertainment and justice.
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Israel's current status in this affair is "Prime suspect". If evidence emerges to give concrete links between Mossad and this assassination then there will be diplomatic repercussions for Israel in their relationships with the countries that were implicated by association through the stolen passports.

Let's be clear, few people are likely to be mourning the loss of the Hamas leader except Hamas supporters in the region. But the violation of UAE's sovereignty, and involving third-party nations in international criminal activity is something that the international community must treat seriously.

If Mossad were responsible, it was a major f***-up. The activity of secret services is meant to be just that, secret. They may find that on balance this mission has caused them greater long-term damage than the Hamas guy could have achieved had he lived. Of course, if you're judging it in entertainment terms... Jesus!
 
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Andalublue said:
Israel's current status in this affair is "Prime suspect".
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Actually if we were to step out of lala-land for a moment we'd fine out that even suspects have evidence that points against them.
There is no such evidence in this case.

If, however, you consider the British-Israeli used names as an evidence - then you must consider all of them equally as suspects - meaning that the suspects currently are; Israel, Britain, Ireland, Germany, France, Austria and the USA.

That is not the case, of course.
If evidence emerges to give concrete links between Mossad and this assassination
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I don't fool myself, neither should you.
No evidence would emerge, the case would be forgotten in 2 weeks max from now. (More reasonably 5-6 days)
Let's be clear, few people are likely to be mourning the loss of the Hamas leader except Hamas supporters in the region.
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And outside the region.
But the violation of UAE's sovereignty, and involving third-party nations in international criminal activity is something that the international community must treat seriously.
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Of course, they should investigate.
That's a violation of their laws and it should be considered such.
They wouldn't, however, find a thing.
The hit squad has most likely left nothing that could point towards them.
Agents in such cases are only caught during the operation.
Since the agents in this case have successfully escaped before the Dubai police could realize what has happened, and since they have probably used a totally different appearance from their original and actual image, the chances to catch them are pretty much non-existent.
If Mossad were responsible, it was a major f***-up.
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How so?
Terrorist dead, agents escaped, no evidence left behind.
The activity of secret services is meant to be just that, secret. They may find that on balance this mission has caused them greater long-term damage than the Hamas guy could have achieved had he lived.
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Again, let's not fool ourselves.
They absolutely knew of Dubai's camera systems, they knew they will be recorded on CCTV, and they have prepared accordingly wearing glasses, wigs, makeup and probably face masks.

Here's one of the agents, Gail Folliard, giving a big greening smile to the camera.
Of course, a very blurry picture, and you can see that she's wearing a wig:

article-1251581-08556ED7000005DC-931_634x444.jpg
 
Apocalypse said:
I don't fool myself, neither should you.
No evidence would emerge,

They wouldn't, however, find a thing.

The hit squad has most likely left nothing that could point towards them.

Agents in such cases are only caught during the operation.

Since the agents in this case have successfully escaped before the Dubai police could realize what has happened, and since they have probably used a totally different appearance from their original and actual image, the chances to catch them are pretty much non-existent.

They absolutely knew of Dubai's camera systems, they knew they will be recorded on CCTV, and they have prepared accordingly wearing glasses, wigs, makeup and probably face masks.

Here's one of the agents, Gail Folliard, giving a big greening smile to the camera.
Of course, a very blurry picture, and you can see that she's wearing a wig:
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Funny, you seem very knowledgeable of the organisation and tactics of an assassination squad that you deny is connected to Mossad.

All your analysis above might well apply to a Mossad mission. If it were, for example, the work of Hamas' Palestinian rival Fatah, I suspect you wouldn't be making all the above claims.

Who do you think did it? As I said, I suspect Mossad. If there's no evidence of that, who do you suspect?
 
Andalublue said:
Funny, you seem very knowledgeable of the organisation and tactics of an assassination squad that you deny is connected to Mossad.
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Why, because if they turn out to be connected to the Mossad(or more likely Mossad itslef), it would make more sense to you that I have knowledge on it?

My so-called 'knowledge' is based purely on previous acts in the modern history of such hits.
All your analysis above might well apply to a Mossad mission. If it were, for example, the work of Hamas' Palestinian rival Fatah, I suspect you wouldn't be making all the above claims.
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Your suspicion is, just like the one that Mossad was behind it, baseless.
I would say the same.
Who do you think did it? As I said, I suspect Mossad. If there's no evidence of that, who do you suspect?
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I suspect no one.
The Dubai police hasn't even presented evidence that the terrorist was murdered, the pathologist that was the first to examine Mahmoud's body said it was a stroke.
He was found on his bed in his hotel room, and there were no signs or marks of violence, and there were pills all over his room.

And if you want another conspiracy theory, it could just as well be that the Saudis have found him dead and have tried to frame the Israeli Mossad agency for the hit, as some form of further incitement against the Israeli state.
 
Apocalypse said:
Why, because if they turn out to be connected to the Mossad(or more likely Mossad itslef), it would make more sense to you that I have knowledge on it?

My so-called 'knowledge' is based purely on previous acts in the modern history of such hits.
Your suspicion is, just like the one that Mossad was behind it, baseless.
I would say the same.
I suspect no one.
The Dubai police hasn't even presented evidence that the terrorist was murdered, the pathologist that was the first to examine Mahmoud's body said it was a stroke.
He was found on his bed in his hotel room, and there were no signs or marks of violence, and there were pills all over his room.

And if you want another conspiracy theory, it could just as well be that the Saudis have found him dead and have tried to frame the Israeli Mossad agency for the hit, as some form of further incitement against the Israeli state.
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What weasel words you weave, ApocalypseWhen. On the one hand you are desperate to laud the daring and expert action of your glorious compatriots. On the other you want to revel in their matchless invisibility. You're torn between praising them and proclaiming their innocence.

Make up your mind. Either they're brilliant for eliminating an enemy of Israel or they're being falsely accused of international terrorism. Which is it?
 
I don't understand what the point is.. I mean, beyond the "one less terrorist in the world" angle... how does this impact Hamas? I will fully admit I know little beyond the surface here, but was this person irreplaceable? Will his death prove a major setback for Hamas of some kind? I guess I don't understand what whoever-did-this expected to achieve, unless this is a more personal than political thing. I can understand revenge, justice, or a personal or business vendetta; but as a political move, was this supposed to deter Hamas in some way? Because I think it would only entrench them further...
 
Andalublue said:
What weasel words you weave, ApocalypseWhen. On the one hand you are desperate to laud the daring and expert action of your glorious compatriots. On the other you want to revel in their matchless invisibility. You're torn between praising them and proclaiming their innocence.

Make up your mind. Either they're brilliant for eliminating an enemy of Israel or they're being falsely accused of international terrorism. Which is it?
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Why should I be torn between two sides of two different coins?

They have done a great job, whoever they are, and I said that many times already.
They have taken down a major terrorist ****head who's now lying in the place where he belongs, underneath the earth.

That does not mean that the Mossad is behind the action, and I cannot hope to understand what kind of damaged logic are you using to tie between one statement and the other.

Anyway, there's no international terrorism here, the 'victim' is a terrorist and not an innocent civilian, this action will only be called 'terrorism' by the terrorist supporters whose opinion doesn't matter.
 
filfilksq said:
I don't understand what the point is.. I mean, beyond the "one less terrorist in the world" angle... how does this impact Hamas? I will fully admit I know little beyond the surface here, but was this person irreplaceable? Will his death prove a major setback for Hamas of some kind? I guess I don't understand what whoever-did-this expected to achieve, unless this is a more personal than political thing. I can understand revenge, justice, or a personal or business vendetta; but as a political move, was this supposed to deter Hamas in some way? Because I think it would only entrench them further...
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Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, the terrorist chief killed in the assassination, was apparently responsible for the supplement of Hamas with rockets from Iran.
He was the man behind the ship caught a few months earlier, an Iranian ship filled with tons of weapons meant for the Hamas organization in Gaza.

Whoever took him out has most probably had knowledge of his actions, and has seen his death important enough to be worth the CCTV capture.
 
Whoever took him out has most probably had knowledge of his actions, and has seen his death important enough to be worth the CCTV capture.
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I guess I don't see how this will impact anything long-term -- won't someone else just step in to fulfill that role? (Assuming that is the impetus behind the attack.)
 
filfilksq said:
I guess I don't see how this will impact anything long-term -- won't someone else just step in to fulfill that role? (Assuming that is the impetus behind the attack.)
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One could most probably fill the role but he would be lacking the Iranian connections that Mabhouh has created for himself.

We do not really know most of the details, we just know that whoever commits an assassination of a terrorist chief in a place such as Dubai - a place that is netted with countless of cameras - probably finds the terrorist's death worthy of the risk.
 
We do not really know most of the details, we just know that whoever commits an assassination of a terrorist chief in a place such as Dubai - a place that is netted with countless of cameras - probably finds the terrorist's death worthy of the risk.
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It's not the first time it's happened here, although the most recent instance I can think of off-hand wasn't terrorism related, the killing of Lebanese singer [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Tamim"]Suzanne Tamim[/ame].

One wonders if the full truth will ever be known.
 
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