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Thread: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    They are going out with deadly intent.
    Deadly intent toward whom? Not the Afghan people, but specific terrorist targets (Al Qaeda or Taliban).

    International Law also recognizes that it is unrealistic to impose a zero civilian casualty standard. Hence, even as civilians must not be deliberately targeted or subjected to indiscriminate bombardment (the drones do not deliberately target civilians nor carry out indiscriminate bombardment), it is also noted that anticipated harm to civilians must not be excessive relative to the anticipated military advantage from the operation.

    People who kill others in traffic accidents are usually prosecuted, often convicted on dangerous or careless driving.
    In my hypothetical example, I specifically stated that there was no negligence.

    You'd think they'd drive a little more carefully with a full, missile payload, wouldn't you?
    NATO has made changes in operating procedure to try to further reduce civilian casualties.

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    I hope andalublue is a vegan, because next time he chomps down on a Whopper he should be brought up on murder charge for malicious intent of eating the bull.
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    When a US drone takes out a terrorist, and unfortuantely, kill civilians unintentionally, it's a saddening and untold tragic.
    Just note that if you commune with a high-value target you do so at your own risk. As far as the American government is concerned, you're not an innocent civilian:

    On August 5th, officials at the Central Intelligence Agency, in Langley, Virginia, watched a live video feed relaying closeup footage of one of the most wanted terrorists in Pakistan. Baitullah Mehsud, the leader of the Taliban in Pakistan, could be seen reclining on the rooftop of his father-in-law’s house, in Zanghara, a hamlet in South Waziristan. It was a hot summer night, and he was joined outside by his wife and his uncle, a medic; at one point, the remarkably crisp images showed that Mehsud, who suffered from diabetes and a kidney ailment, was receiving an intravenous drip.

    The video was being captured by the infrared camera of a Predator drone, a remotely controlled, unmanned plane that had been hovering, undetected, two miles or so above the house. Pakistan’s Interior Minister, A. Rehman Malik, told me recently that Mehsud was resting on his back. Malik, using his hands to make a picture frame, explained that the Predator’s targeters could see Mehsud’s entire body, not just the top of his head. “It was a perfect picture,” Malik, who watched the videotape later, said. “We used to see James Bond movies where he talked into his shoe or his watch. We thought it was a fairy tale. But this was fact!” The image remained just as stable when the C.I.A. remotely launched two Hellfire missiles from the Predator. Authorities watched the fiery blast in real time. After the dust cloud dissipated, all that remained of Mehsud was a detached torso. Eleven others died: his wife, his father-in-law, his mother-in-law, a lieutenant, and seven bodyguards.

    Read more: The risks of the C.I.A. : The New Yorker
    The hypocrisy comes in when a liberal says BObama is restoring America's image in the world by "upholding American values" like due process. BObama's version of "due process": Don't take prisoners. Just send them to Paradise with a Hellfire missile, or make sure they're captured by Pakistan's Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, where they'll undoubtedly receive a prayer blanket, a copy of The Holy Koran, three squares a day, and several ACLU attorneys.
    Нава́льный 2018

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    The hypocrisy comes in when a liberal says BObama is restoring America's image in the world by "upholding American values" like due process.
    The U.S., like any other nation, has an inherent right of self-defense. Throughout its history, when involved in conflict, it has targeted enemy combatants. No nation, no matter how liberal (classical liberal not the political definition) its values has ever adopted a posture that it could not use deadly force against enemy combatants. Indeed, such a posture would be a suicide pact, as it would free enemy combatants to use deadly force against it, while it refrained from responding in kind in self-defense.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 02-19-10 at 08:40 AM.

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Under a baseless accusation is more like it.
    The British and Irish governments have already summoned the Israeli diplomat, and all of the journalists in the world react as if Israel is already proven to be behind this.

    It could have been anyone for all we know
    .
    "baseless accusation" seems a very strong description for a situation where the identified perps insist that the photos/videos we saw of them are actually their "stolen" identities. that even tho it appears we saw them, that was not they that we saw
    being able to identify the assassination team from the videos would seem to provide basis to the allegations of mossad involvement in this covert act
    or maybe we should not question how seven individuals with mossad connections just happened to have their identities stolen
    what organization would have had the motivation and capability to carry out this murder of a hamas operative where that organization also sought to give the "false" appearance that it was a mossad action
    maybe there is a good explanation why this was not a mossad hit ... to date, that argument has not been proferred
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    "baseless accusation" seems a very strong description for a situation where the identified perps insist that the photos/videos we saw of them are actually their "stolen" identities. that even tho it appears we saw them, that was not they that we saw
    being able to identify the assassination team from the videos would seem to provide basis to the allegations of mossad involvement in this covert act
    or maybe we should not question how seven individuals with mossad connections just happened to have their identities stolen
    what organization would have had the motivation and capability to carry out this murder of a hamas operative where that organization also sought to give the "false" appearance that it was a mossad action
    maybe there is a good explanation why this was not a mossad hit ... to date, that argument has not been proferred
    I think the point here is that Mossad has the three conditions for having done it: means, motive and opportunity.

    The fact that they refuse to confirm or deny their involvement means nothing. They never do. That they don't deny it, irrespective of their policy, gives credence to the accusation.

    The stolen passports included several stolen from Israelis with dual Israeli/British nationality domiciled in Israel. More strong circumstantial evidence. That warnings were received that the passports had been stolen, possibly falsified some time before the attack apparently came from intelligence sources and flagged that Mossad may have been involved.

    British Intelligence is not likely to reveal its sources nor point a finger definitively at Israel unless they are 100% certain, perhaps not even then. If Israeli is getting agitated at the fact that the World is not believing the ingenuousness of their response, they should look at the way they've been doing business in the past and stop flying around the World behaving like a malignant Jason Bourne.
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The U.S., like any other nation, has an inherent right of self-defense. Throughout its history, when involved in conflict, it has targeted enemy combatants. No nation, no matter how liberal (classical liberal not the political definition) its values has ever adopted a posture that it could not use deadly force against enemy combatants. Indeed, such a posture would be a suicide pact, as it would free enemy combatants to use deadly force against it, while it refrained from responding in kind in self-defense.
    I have no issue with the US defending itself, I wasn't even referring solely to US activity, but NATO in general.

    My point is that the use of attack drones is not as accurate or foolproof as we've been led to believe. The high level of civilian casualties in these attacks gives succour and reason to those enemies (and others) who say, "there's no difference between a suicide bombing of a military base or police station, targeted directly at the enemy with innocent civilians getting caught by accident and drone attacks on private houses where insurgent leaders may be lodging along with women and children". We've all read these kinds of statements.

    Perhaps it's time for NATO in Afghanistan to stop using attack drones and concentrate on gaining land victories against the Taliban.
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    We've all read these kinds of statements.

    .
    I think the question here really isn't so much whether we have read them, but whether or not we have written them. Considering the large number of posters who have indulged in sweeping moral equivalences of just this nature, I appreciate anything one might offer to distinguish between their own views and those to which they refer.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I think the question here really isn't so much whether we have read them, but whether or not we have written them. Considering the large number of posters who have indulged in sweeping moral equivalences of just this nature, I appreciate anything one might offer to distinguish between their own views and those to which they refer.
    I feel that those statements have some moral validity when the death count of innocents continues to climb. I don't hold, I'm repeating myself from previous posts here, that there is a moral equivalence between the NATO actions and those of indiscriminate fundamentalist Islamist activity.

    Could I be clearer? I don't think NATO are as culpable for the loss of innocent lives as the insurgents! I believe NATO is trying to achieve something laudable in Afghanistan but is making too many mistakes and too many ordinary Afghans are getting killed as a result.

    If you still want to misrepresent me as an enemy of the West and a friend of Islamist terrorists, go right ahead. I'm just not going to kow-tow to some simplistic, West=all good, don't criticise: Islam=bad, they've all got it coming to them.
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I think the point here is that Mossad has the three conditions for having done it: means, motive and opportunity.

    The fact that they refuse to confirm or deny their involvement means nothing. They never do. That they don't deny it, irrespective of their policy, gives credence to the accusation.

    The stolen passports included several stolen from Israelis with dual Israeli/British nationality domiciled in Israel. More strong circumstantial evidence. That warnings were received that the passports had been stolen, possibly falsified some time before the attack apparently came from intelligence sources and flagged that Mossad may have been involved.

    British Intelligence is not likely to reveal its sources nor point a finger definitively at Israel unless they are 100% certain, perhaps not even then. If Israeli is getting agitated at the fact that the World is not believing the ingenuousness of their response, they should look at the way they've been doing business in the past and stop flying around the World behaving like a malignant Jason Bourne.
    In order for an accusation to be made, a true basis must be formed.

    Right now, all we have knowledge of is:

    -Some of the passports used were British.
    -Some of the names taken for the identities were British-Israelis dual nationality citizens.
    -Some of the passports used were Irish.
    -One French passport was used.
    -One German passport was used.
    -Most of the phone lines used were based in Austria.
    -American credit cards were used.

    That is everything that is currently known to us on the case.
    Due to the above, the rational conclusion that will be drawn is that right now nothing points out to one of the specific countries above, with Britain being related to both the passports and the citizenship of the "stolen identities", leading the chart.

    Since that is the case, one cannot simply blame the Mossad for the hit out of the blue, and doing so will be an act of pure irrationality.

    Anyway, my personal opinion is that whoever it was was not related to any of the above countries, since leaving traces to the country of your origin would be one of the issues that is mostly avoided here.
    Hence, the fact that British, German, French, Irish passports, American credit cards, British-Israeli names and Austrian phone-lines were used, could act as a counter-evidence to the claim that any of the above countries has anything to do with it.

    All that doesn't matter, of course, since the identity behind the assassination of the head-terrorist would be most likely hidden for eternity from the public's eyes, and the investigation would bear no fruit.

    Hopefully we'll see more terrorist assassinations of that kind in the future, it consists of both entertainment and justice.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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