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Thread: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

  1. #11
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Good.
    A moment ago your opposition was to the actual act of taking the life of the high-ranking terrorist.
    Now you've supposedly changed your stance to a more moderate stance and less terrorist-supportive that the wrong thing here is that the hit squad has used foreign passports.
    Well, that's extremely fine with me, as the identity of the party behind it is unknown and will probably stay unknown, and hence no one can really be blamed with it.
    You are unaware of the fact that Israel has a very well known policy to neither deny nor confirm it when they make a covert operation.
    So they haven't denied, but haven't confirmed as well.
    Leaving it as that currently Israel cannot be accused of the action.
    Furthermore, Israel's foreign minister has came out with a statement that there is no proof Israel is behind it.
    I think your war for terrorism is a sham.
    You don't know me, lower your ****ing tone down.
    And I completely agree.
    Hypocrisy is referring to two similar situations with two different sides with a different attitude.
    I refer to two different situations with two different sides with a different attitude.
    When a US drone takes out a terrorist, and unfortuantely, kill civilians unintentionally, it's a saddening and untold tragic.
    When a terrorist low-life decides to murder innocent people because of their nationality, he is a low-life murderer and his life is meaningless to us on the moral-abiding side of the moral-meter.
    Lower your tone? "Hello, kettle? It's pot"

    I have not changed my position, but nice rhetorical trick there. I deplore any action that perpetuates conflict, alienates one people from another and in fighting violence with violence only succeeds in breeding more violence.

    The point about the US/UK was to draw a distinction between acting yourself and acting but trying to switch the blame onto someone else.

    Israel can have any f***ed up policy it wants, it just can't expect the World to believe a word it says: too much water under too many bridges. You think the UK just plucked the name of Israel out of the air and said "Yeah, must've been them". Read the story, they had intelligence reports too.

    You'll have to try much harder if you expect anyone to see a major difference between accidental and intentional killing. Can't you see that no one is interested in "unfortunate collateral damage" arguments when they keep happening, and people keep dying. Who is interested in intentions when outcomes are the same?
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  2. #12
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I deplore any action that perpetuates conflict, alienates one people from another and in fighting violence with violence only succeeds in breeding more violence.
    What part do you not understand in "I do not care"?
    Israel can have any f***ed up policy it wants
    Blame game, you're doing exactly what you're blaming Israel for, you're pointing fingers.
    it just can't expect the World to believe a word it says: too much water under too many bridges. You think the UK just plucked the name of Israel out of the air and said "Yeah, must've been them". Read the story, they had intelligence reports too.
    I read nearly every article on the subject, and yes, the possibility that it was the Mossad is quite a logical one. They, however, have no intelligence reports that point towards the Mossad.
    And that doesn't mean that they can simply point fingers without finding out who's actually behind it. I've expected you to know that as well, I guess I was just overestimating you, if that's even possible.
    You'll have to try much harder if you expect anyone to see a major difference between accidental and intentional killing.
    Anyone is not you, and I do not expect you to see a major difference here.
    I do not expect this 'anyone', too, but anyone would expect from you to see so.
    Immorality also has one definition to it that says that a person cannot separate between different levels of moral, as you so obviously demonstrate here.
    Can't you see that no one is interested in "unfortunate collateral damage" arguments when they keep happening, and people keep dying. Who is interested in intentions when outcomes are the same?
    The majority of the people in the world, who support giving murderers a way-tougher punishment than to those who kill unintentionally?

    You simply debunk your own words here.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    They should have used false US passports, preferably with the names of the usual suspects on these boards....wonder what the tune from the usual suspects would be then..
    PeteEU

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Immorality also has one definition to it that says that a person cannot separate between different levels of moral, as you so obviously demonstrate here.
    The majority of the people in the world, who support giving murderers a way-tougher punishment than to those who kill unintentionally?
    Well, we're making progress. At least now you are accepting that collateral damages killings are crimes. The difference between these crimes and other "unintentional" killings are that these go unpunished. Everyone knows the perpetrator but no one's interested in the justice.

    Is there a moral equivalence between suicide bombers and US drone pilots? No. But are the crimes morally comparable? Yes. You can compare them and find one more heinous than the other but they are both still morally reprehensible.

    There hasn't been a war in history in which both sides haven't claimed the moral high ground. There hasn't been a single war in which that high ground wasn't crumbly under foot.
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Under a baseless accusation is more like it.
    The British and Irish governments have already summoned the Israeli diplomat, and all of the journalists in the world react as if Israel is already proven to be behind this.

    It could have been anyone for all we know.
    It's pretty sad that allegations are being treated as proved facts in a rush to judgment. Yet, Britain still has taken no meaningful action whatsoever to address the flaws in its legal system under which judges can assume extraterritorial jurisdiction to issue arrest warrants to serve the purely political interests of various parties.

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    When a US drone takes out a terrorist, and unfortuantely, kill civilians unintentionally, it's a saddening and untold tragic.

    When a terrorist low-life decides to murder innocent people because of their nationality, he is a low-life murderer and his life is meaningless to us on the moral-abiding side of the moral-meter.
    Unfortunately, even as intent is a vital element for assessing such casualties under international law and, any reasonal criteria for that matter, the assumption among some that intent does not matter seems all too common. Among some pundits and commentators, one often finds a bias toward moral equivalency.

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Unfortunately, even as intent is a vital element for assessing such casualties under international law and, any reasonal criteria for that matter, the assumption among some that intent does not matter seems all too common. Among some pundits and commentators, one often finds a bias toward moral equivalency.
    The unfortunate thing about your position is that you seem to be saying that intent is the ONLY criteria for judging these acts. If you didn't mean to kill these specific people then if they get killed as a direct result of your actions that is unfortunate, but no crime.

    Re: moral equivalency, see previous post.
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The unfortunate thing about your position is that you seem to be saying that intent is the ONLY criteria for judging these acts. If you didn't mean to kill these specific people then if they get killed as a direct result of your actions that is unfortunate, but no crime.

    Re: moral equivalency, see previous post.
    Intent is vital. It isn't the only criteria e.g., negligence could be present.

    Anytime innocent people die, it is a tragedy.

    Ignoring intent would establish a dangerous precedent. For example, let's say someone lost control of their car during an ice storm and had an accident in which a fatality resulted. If intent were treated as irrelevant (and assuming there was no negligence e.g., speeding, etc.), then that person should be charged with murder. Aside from ethical issues, treating accidents in which there is no intent to cause harm (or other relevant elements) as crimes would be unworkable legally.

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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Intent is vital. It isn't the only criteria e.g., negligence could be present.

    Anytime innocent people die, it is a tragedy.

    Ignoring intent would establish a dangerous precedent. For example, let's say someone lost control of their car during an ice storm and had an accident in which a fatality resulted. If intent were treated as irrelevant (and assuming there was no negligence e.g., speeding, etc.), then that person should be charged with murder. Aside from ethical issues, treating accidents in which there is no intent to cause harm (or other relevant elements) as crimes would be unworkable legally.
    It's not that simple. We are not talking about someone going out on a simple errand and then, by accident, something awful happens. Those drones are not going out to pick up a litre of milk and the morning paper. They are going out with deadly intent. When, by accident, negligence, incompetence or expediency, they kill innocent civilians this is not something to be ignored, but that is what happens. These killings are going entirely unpunished and destroying any chance of building trust and confidence amongst the people you are supposedly there to liberate from the evil, violent Islamists.

    People who kill others in traffic accidents are usually prosecuted, often convicted on dangerous or careless driving.

    You'd think they'd drive a little more carefully with a full, missile payload, wouldn't you?
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    Re: Israel Under Suspicion It Killed Hamas Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    People who kill others in traffic accidents are usually prosecuted, often convicted on dangerous or careless driving.
    However, they are not charged with MURDER, which would be equivilent and potential for "hypocrisy".

    I'll give you another thing. A man kills a shop keeper as he robs the place. A polie officer, after said man begins to fire upon him, attempts to return fire and has a stray bullet hit a civilian he was unaware of hiding behind an isle of goods.

    To you, apparently, both the robber and the police officer should be brought up on murder charges because the Cop did fire his gun with "harmful intent", just not for the innocent caught in the crossfire.

    Your disgusting act of trying to pretend you're saying this stuff on moral grounds when its an obvious attempt to simply demonize the west and prop up people who purposefully, willfully, and without prejudice aim for civilian targets is sickening.

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