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Thread: Snow days mean less food for many students

  1. #21
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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    This man gets it - Free will vs. coercion. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

    A cigar to you, Ockham.
    Whether you agree with the school lunch program or not, anyone with even a elementary understanding of civics knows that allocating part of your tax dollars towards it does not constitute theft, but rather its social contract. There is 195 nations in the "market of nations" to choose from. If someone does not like the social contract in the United States, there are 194 different nations on the menu - all with their own social contracts that residents live under.

    My point is that calling anything your tax dollars goes to "theft" is an argument for people that are a lot less intelligent than you are.
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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    OK, so there are a lot of poor kids in the US. It sucks that they are missing out on a meal, but what sucks more is the government deciding that they should take money out of MY pocket to feed them. If I am charitable, and I am, then I donate money freely, of my own free will. If the government takes my money, for whatever cause they believe is right, then they are thieves, because what they are doing is stealing.
    So...take money out of my pocket to say.....uh....oh.......have civilian trials for enemy combatants that require security, facilitation, and risk assessment and of course...feeding them as you're arguing in another thread....but....it's stealing to feed American Schoolchildren with that same tax money?

    Priorities are a little upside down don't ya think?
    Last edited by Charles Martel; 02-16-10 at 04:04 PM.
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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Honestly, I simply do not understand this argument. Especially if the end result is the same thing.
    It's the difference between voluntary cooperation and coercive cooperation. The Constitution does not provide this explicit or implied power to the fed govt.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Whether you agree with the school lunch program or not, anyone with even a elementary understanding of civics knows that allocating part of your tax dollars towards it does not constitute theft, but rather its social contract. There is 195 nations in the "market of nations" to choose from. If someone does not like the social contract in the United States, there are 194 different nations on the menu - all with their own social contracts that residents live under.

    My point is that calling anything your tax dollars goes to "theft" is an argument for people that are a lot less intelligent than you are.
    There is no social contract in the US to support a school lunch program under the Constitution. If you contend there is, please show me the clause and background.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Interesting perspective. This might highlight one of the main differences between conservatives (and I mean the rare nonloony ones on this forum like Dan or Ockham) and liberals. As a liberal, I am more concerned that the ends are served, now necessarily how it is done (in this situation, different situations will create different approaches from different groups, of course.) But good, more charity means less need for welfare, as long as the charity goes to the right place and doesn't end up supporting something useless like a community symphony.
    Yet conservatives are more likely to give to charity.

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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    A pack of ramen is about 25 cents a pack or less and a box of mac and cheese is 35 cents or less and a pack of hotdogs is less than a dollar.They do not need the Kraft,Oscar Mayer, or any other name brand. Besides if they are getting food stamps they can't use food stamps to buy gas.
    ramen, mac and cheese, and hotdogs are not exactly the most healthy things to feed kids on a regular basis....they may be fine for college students, but not little kids .

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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    There is no social contract in the US to support a school lunch program under the Constitution. If you contend there is, please show me the clause and background.
    1. You have no constitutional protection in the U.S. Constitution that protects you from the federal government spending your tax dollars on programs that you disagree with. Your only recourse is to exercise your positive rights to either vote, petition your government, or convince others of your view.

    2. Promote the general welfare is unfortunately a very broad statement. Now one might argue that many social safety-nets provide rather than promote the general welfare. However, the statement is so broad as to make virtually any safety-net the people's chosen representatives vote in constitutional. 100 years of federal judiciary rulings back that up as well.

    If disagree, then fine. You have a constitutional recourse and that is to vote congressmen in that share your view and thus will do away with the school lunch program. However, you will get no where, regardless of who the federal judge is, if you think you can challenge it on constitutional grounds.
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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Whether you agree with the school lunch program or not, anyone with even a elementary understanding of civics knows that allocating part of your tax dollars towards it does not constitute theft, but rather its social contract. There is 195 nations in the "market of nations" to choose from. If someone does not like the social contract in the United States, there are 194 different nations on the menu - all with their own social contracts that residents live under.

    My point is that calling anything your tax dollars goes to "theft" is an argument for people that are a lot less intelligent than you are.
    Politically, there is no Constitutional amendment that would allow government allocation of tax dollars for a social contract, and before someone brings up the "general welfare" preamble clause -- the preamble is NOT support in and of itself but is an introduction. I do not think the general welfare clause of the pre-amble gives the Federal Government the right to allocate funds for social contracts.


    This was the case in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.


    "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798


    "[I must question] the constitutionality and propriety of the Federal Government assuming to enter into a novel and vast field of legislation, namely, that of providing for the care and support of all those who by any form of calamity become fit objects of public philanthropy ... I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for making the Federal Government the great almoner of public charity throughout the United States. To do so would, in my judgment, be contrary to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and subversive of the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded." - President Franklin Pierce, 1854



    "As a matter of fact and law, the governing rights of the States are all of those which have not been
    surrendered to the National Government by the Constitution or its amendments. Wisely or unwisely,
    people know that under the Eighteenth Amendment Congress has been given the right to legislate on this particular subject1, but this is not the case in the matter of a great number of other vital problems of government, such as the conduct of public utilities, of banks, of insurance, of business, of agriculture, of education, of social welfare and of a dozen other important features. In these, Washington must not be encouraged to interfere." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 1930
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Politically, there is no Constitutional amendment that would allow government allocation of tax dollars for a social contract, and before someone brings up the "general welfare" preamble clause -- the preamble is NOT support in and of itself but is an introduction. I do not think the general welfare clause of the pre-amble gives the Federal Government the right to allocate funds for social contracts.


    This was the case in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.


    "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798


    "[I must question] the constitutionality and propriety of the Federal Government assuming to enter into a novel and vast field of legislation, namely, that of providing for the care and support of all those … who by any form of calamity become fit objects of public philanthropy ... I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for making the Federal Government the great almoner of public charity throughout the United States. To do so would, in my judgment, be contrary to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and subversive of the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded." - President Franklin Pierce, 1854



    "As a matter of fact and law, the governing rights of the States are all of those which have not been
    surrendered to the National Government by the Constitution or its amendments. Wisely or unwisely,
    people know that under the Eighteenth Amendment Congress has been given the right to legislate on this particular subject1, but this is not the case in the matter of a great number of other vital problems of government, such as the conduct of public utilities, of banks, of insurance, of business, of agriculture, of education, of social welfare and of a dozen other important features. In these, Washington must not be encouraged to interfere." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 1930
    That is all neither here nor there. The Federal Judiciary are the ultimate arbiters of what is and what is not constitutional. No one has ever successfully changed the constitutionality of the school lunch program, or any of the other safety-nets out there. Therefore, they are constitutional. Thats how it works, Civics 101 here.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Snow days mean less food for many students

    If you want to talk about getting the federal government out of the business of providing all these social safety-nets, like a federal school lunch program - which is only a farm subsidy, then I agree, a lot of this stuff would be far more efficiently dealt with at the state and local level.

    My only point is that it stupid to argue that they are unconstitutional. If they were unconstitutional, they would have been successfully challenged in the federal courts by now.

    Moreover, its stupid to call it theft. Taxes are the fees you pay to live and work in a nation, state, and locality. Its not theft. Are they too high? Hell yeah they are too high. Its not theft though.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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