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Thread: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Not a terrorist attack. It's nothing more than some deranged soldier going postal.
    Post # 283

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    However, and I believe this has already been pointed out somewhere in this thread, gays are already in the military and in the rest of society. How is repealing DADT "social engineering". It's done.
    Yes, they are, but not openly. Even if gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, DADT should be left in place to prevent discrimination. I think the total abolition of DADT, regardless of the status of gays in the military, will be a huge mistake.



    Why would new billets need to be constructed? Gays are there already.
    New billets will be required when gays and straights refuse to share the same living quarters.





    Demands like refusing to lie about who they are in order to serve in the military?
    Why do gays have to lie about who they are? No one can ask them if they're gay, so they aren't in a position to be forced to lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yes, they are, but not openly. Even if gays are allowed to serve openly in the military, DADT should be left in place to prevent discrimination. I think the total abolition of DADT, regardless of the status of gays in the military, will be a huge mistake.
    There's a disconnect for me here. How can gays serve openly and DADT remain in effect?



    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    New billets will be required when gays and straights refuse to share the same living quarters.
    The way they did when the service was racially integrated?



    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why do gays have to lie about who they are? No one can ask them if they're gay, so they aren't in a position to be forced to lie.
    Of course they have to lie. Some have been discharged when it was discovered they were emailing their love interests. I posted a link where one was anonymously outted when his affairs were discovered. He answered truthfully when interrogated about the claims and was of course found to be guilty of "being gay" and discharged.

    In order to stay in the service, he would have had to lie like a rug.

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    There's a disconnect for me here. How can gays serve openly and DADT remain in effect?
    To prevent discrimination. Why would you want to remove a safe gaurd that would allow gays to be identified and targetted by unit leaders and other soldiers? IMO, abolition of DADT will result in straight on gay, as well as gay on straight, discrimination.





    The way they did when the service was racially integrated?
    You mean all the riots of the 1970's? Comparing sexual preference to race is the most indiotic argument in defense of the abolition of DADT that there is, to date, because there are more black and latino homophobes than there are white homophobes.





    Of course they have to lie.
    No, they don't. Do you know what the, "DA", part of DADT means?

    Some have been discharged when it was discovered they were emailing their love interests.[/quote]

    Let's see the evidence, because I'm betting that there's way more to that story that what you would have us believe.

    I posted a link where one was anonymously outted when his affairs were discovered. He answered truthfully when interrogated about the claims and was of course found to be guilty of "being gay" and discharged.
    And, he's a ****ing idiot, because it's his right under DADT to refuse to answer questions about his sexuality.

    In order to stay in the service, he would have had to lie like a rug.
    No, all he would have to do is refuse to answer the questions, citing DADT as his right to do so.

    If you completely remove DADT, you give a commander the right to ask and remove a soldier's right to refuse to tell.

    You just opened gays and straights alike to untold incidences of discrimination. Good job!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    So to prevent discrimination, we need to discriminate.

    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    So to prevent discrimination, we need to discriminate.

    To prevent discrimination, we need to not give officers and NCO's the legal ability to idenetify and target gay soldiers.

    Please, explain why you would allow a leader/commander to directly ask a soldier if he/she is gay, then use that information to discriminate against that soldier? I don't see any good coming from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    So, someone who's intolerant of murderers is a bigot ..I'll have to remember that
    The dictionary is your friend.
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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    To prevent discrimination. Why would you want to remove a safe gaurd that would allow gays to be identified and targetted by unit leaders and other soldiers? IMO, abolition of DADT will result in straight on gay, as well as gay on straight, discrimination.
    Huh? They are targeted now. One slip and they can lose their career. DADT is no safeguard. It's a trap door out of the service.

    How does DADT prevent gays from discriminating against straights?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You mean all the riots of the 1970's? Comparing sexual preference to race is the most indiotic argument in defense of the abolition of DADT that there is, to date, because there are more black and latino homophobes than there are white homophobes.
    I'm sorry, I was quite young then, I'm unaware of race riots in the military during the 1970's. Also the Harry Truman desegregated the service on July 26, 1948. I'm unaware if there riots then.

    Race is not sexual orientation, however the resultant discrimination has the same effect.

    Bigotry is not limited to whites. That still should not have any bearing on the elimination of DADT.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, they don't. Do you know what the, "DA", part of DADT means?
    Of course no one should ask, but people gain enemies in the service or any job those people want to know, so they investigate in order to gain an advantage.

    See below, DA was violated:

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post

    Some have been discharged when it was discovered they were emailing their love interests.




    Let's see the evidence, because I'm betting that there's way more to that story that what you would have us believe.

    Army dismisses gay Arabic linguist - Military- msnbc.com

    While investigators were never able to determine who the accuser was, “in the end, the nature and the volume of the evidence and Sgt. Copas’s own sworn statement led me to discharge him,” Zellmer said.

    Military investigators wrote that Copas “engaged in at least three homosexual relationships, and is dealing with at least two jealous lovers, either of whom could be the anonymous source providing this information.”

    Shortly after Copas was appointed to the 82nd Airborne’s highly visible All-American Chorus last May, the first e-mail came to the chorus director.

    “The director brought everyone into the hallway and told us about this e-mail they had just received and blatantly asked, ’Which one of you are gay?”’ Copas said.

    Copas later complained to the director and his platoon sergeant, saying the questions violated “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”

    “They said they would watch it in the future,” Copas said. “And they said, even specifically then, ’Well, you are not gay are you?’ And I said, ’no.”’

    The accuser, who signed his e-mails “John Smith” or “ftbraggman,” pressed Copas’ superiors to take action against him or “I will inform your entire battalion of the information that I gave you.”


    So much for DA part of DADT.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, he's a ****ing idiot, because it's his right under DADT to refuse to answer questions about his sexuality.
    You can see he did lie the first time they violated DADT. Also, he was probably aware of the evidence against him and at that point, it's useless to lie and possibly face perjury charges.



    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, all he would have to do is refuse to answer the questions, citing DADT as his right to do so.

    If you completely remove DADT, you give a commander the right to ask and remove a soldier's right to refuse to tell.

    You just opened gays and straights alike to untold incidences of discrimination. Good job!!

    What straight man would refuse to answer if asked that question? In refusing to answer, a gay man would then be answering, yes? Like taking the 5th. The implication is guilt.

    I'm still wondering, how do gays discriminate against straights if DADT is removed?

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    The dictionary is your friend.
    It fits the definition. Does that upset you?

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    Re: Fox News Poll: Most Voters Say Allow Gays to Serve Openly

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    Huh? They are targeted now. One slip and they can lose their career. DADT is no safeguard. It's a trap door out of the service.
    You totally misunderstand what DADT is designed to do. Gay bans in the military didn't start with DADT. DADT took away a commander's legal ability to question a soldier about his/her sexuality. Even if gays are allowed to serve openly, DADT needs to remain in place.

    How does DADT prevent gays from discriminating against straights?
    It prevents a heterophobe from discriminating against a straight soldier because of his sexuality. And, please, let's don't act like it can't happen. We all know it can, does and will.



    I'm sorry, I was quite young then, I'm unaware of race riots in the military during the 1970's. Also the Harry Truman desegregated the service on July 26, 1948. I'm unaware if there riots then.
    Race is not sexual orientation, however the resultant discrimination has the same effect.

    Bigotry is not limited to whites. That still should not have any bearing on the elimination of DADT.



    Of course no one should ask, but people gain enemies in the service or any job those people want to know, so they investigate in order to gain an advantage.

    See below, DA was violated:




    Army dismisses gay Arabic linguist - Military- msnbc.com

    While investigators were never able to determine who the accuser was, “in the end, the nature and the volume of the evidence and Sgt. Copas’s own sworn statement led me to discharge him,” Zellmer said.

    Military investigators wrote that Copas “engaged in at least three homosexual relationships, and is dealing with at least two jealous lovers, either of whom could be the anonymous source providing this information.”

    Shortly after Copas was appointed to the 82nd Airborne’s highly visible All-American Chorus last May, the first e-mail came to the chorus director.

    “The director brought everyone into the hallway and told us about this e-mail they had just received and blatantly asked, ’Which one of you are gay?”’ Copas said.

    Copas later complained to the director and his platoon sergeant, saying the questions violated “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”

    “They said they would watch it in the future,” Copas said. “And they said, even specifically then, ’Well, you are not gay are you?’ And I said, ’no.”’

    The accuser, who signed his e-mails “John Smith” or “ftbraggman,” pressed Copas’ superiors to take action against him or “I will inform your entire battalion of the information that I gave you.”

    That's right, DA was violated. Because of that, Sgt. Copas had the legal right not to answer any questions regarding his sexuality. Appears to be a lack of leadership in that particular unit, but, we are tlaking about a ****ing chorus, so we can't expect them to live up to the traditions of discipline and leadership of the United States military.



    You can see he did lie the first time they violated DADT. Also, he was probably aware of the evidence against him and at that point, it's useless to lie and possibly face perjury charges.
    Under the UCMJ, as with the Constituion, Sgt. Copas would have had the right to face his accuser. There's no way that the Army could have charged him with perjury.






    What straight man would refuse to answer if asked that question?
    I wouldn't. And, I would cite DADT as the reason that I refused to answer the question.


    In refusing to answer, a gay man would then be answering, yes? Like taking the 5th. The implication is guilt.
    It don't work like that.

    I'm still wondering, how do gays discriminate against straights if DADT is removed?


    Because it would allow the Perez Hiltons of the world to openly question straight soldiers about their feelings toward gays and gay issues, then allow those straight soldiers to be discriminated against. Agian, let's don't act like all gays are perfect, wonderful, fair, cool and understanding people that would never, ever do anything wrong, such as discriminate against a straight soldier, or show favoritism toward a gay soldier.

    If you want to hear the crybaby **** of, "I didn't get promoted because my gay commander doesn't like straights", then remove DADT and let the games begin.

    I think that the proponents of the abolition of DADT think that when it happens, everything is going to right in the world and bad things aren't going to be a result and that just ain't how it's going to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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