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3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

USA-1 said:
http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwmassshootings.pdf
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The VPC-are you serious? LOL

Josh Sugarmann is perhaps the most dishonest propagandist in the USA. This is the jackass who pushed for the clinton magazine capacity ban and then whined when makers downsized their pistols to be more size specific for 10 round limited magazines

he is the liar who sent out a paper in 1987 telling the media to deliberately confuse machine guns with semi autos and use movies of people using machine guns when they talked about semi auto bans.

nothing that comes from that group is worthy of any credibility

Millions of permit holders and that is the best they can come up with? MOre cops kill people illegally

and I don't see ANYTHING about age-the ones there were a 31 year old etc
 
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the makeout hobo said:
Do you have a suggestion?
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Remove schools for so-called "gun free" zones...because apparently they aren't "gun-free" anyway...and allow CCW holders to carry on campus.

More guns = less crime.
 
TurtleDude said:
The VPC-are you serious? LOL

Josh Sugarmann is perhaps the most dishonest propagandist in the USA. This is the jackass who pushed for the clinton magazine capacity ban and then whined when makers downsized their pistols to be more size specific for 10 round limited magazines

he is the liar who sent out a paper in 1987 telling the media to deliberately confuse machine guns with semi autos and use movies of people using machine guns when they talked about semi auto bans.

nothing that comes from that group is worthy of any credibility

Millions of permit holders and that is the best they can come up with? MOre cops kill people illegally

and I don't see ANYTHING about age-the ones there were a 31 year old etc
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So you deny that those murders were committed by CCW permit holders?
 
USA-1 said:
So you deny that those murders were committed by CCW permit holders?
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one for every 10,000? LOL

Here is the bottom line-in many states passing CCW laws was a tough battle. here in Ohio, RINO governor Boob Taft vetoed it and he was overridden. If CCW holders were a problem, i sure haven't heard any efforts to overturn those laws.

and I hate to clue you in on reality-laws against carry guns legally aren't going to deter people who engage in capital murder
 
TurtleDude said:
one for every 10,000? LOL

Here is the bottom line-in many states passing CCW laws was a tough battle. here in Ohio, RINO governor Boob Taft vetoed it and he was overridden. If CCW holders were a problem, i sure haven't heard any efforts to overturn those laws.

and I hate to clue you in on reality-laws against carry guns legally aren't going to deter people who engage in capital murder
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I am all for CCW. But those that claim CCW permit holders are somehow better than those without are ridiculous.
 
USA-1 said:
I am all for CCW. But those that claim CCW permit holders are somehow better than those without are ridiculous.
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1) I never said that

2) people with CCW permits have undergone background checks in almost every state and again, in most states, training

3) that means that people with CCW permits are almost always without felony convictions compared to "those without them"
 
TurtleDude said:
LOL I am laughing at the crap you spew. YOu are making stuff up and you have made major errors. Teenagers being able to get CCW licenses pretty much branded you as uncredible in this discussion. And Having been involved in DOZENS of major felony cases I have never heard someone successfully float the BS you spew as mitigation for a 21 year old being excused for murder robbery, felonious assault or drug dealing.

If your nonsense had a basis in fact we would see 21 year old CCW holders having higher rates of malfeasance than thirty year olds. Guess what-NO EVIDENCE EXISTS TO SUPPORT THAT Supposition.

BTW are you a PhD in psychology or are you just parroting studies you read someplace?
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You're making me laugh at how narrow your understanding of this issue is. Firstly, you do understand that if a drunk driver kills someone, they being drunk does not mitigate that they killed someone. So, regardless of the research, if someone, 21, killed someone with a gun, they would still be responsible. So, that little monologue of yours has been successfully rendered irrelevant. Secondly, with modern technology, the research confirming what we already know about teens/young adults is fairly new, but it demonstrates that this age group is more impulsive and less able to manage their emotions rationally because of biological reasons. Thirdly, one must also look at societal situations. Being on a college campus, a stressful environment, is quite different both socially and culturally when COMBINED with these developmental issues then other scenarios. Also, your statistics of 21 year olds vs. 30 year olds is skewed by the fact that far fewer 21 year olds own guns then 30 year olds.

And yes, I am licensed as a psychotherapist and have been for 20 years. I give talks/lectures on the topic of the adolescent brain and have read a bit of research on it. I would have thought that someone who claims to have your education would have been aware of it.
 
Jerry said:
Wild usa-1 uses "play dumb"!

It's not very effective!
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Jerry is confused. Jerry hurts himself in his confusion.

I can make you into a Pokemon too. Not really an effective means of debate.
 
USA-1 said:
So all but seven have open carry laws. I said six.
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Wrong again. Only eleven have fully unrestricted open carry. Seven have no open carry. The other thirty-two have open carry subject to a variety of restrictions, such as "only during hunting season" or "not in the city".

You have a habit of speaking of things you know little of and have not properly researched. It doesn't reflect well on you.


USA-1 said:
I am all for CCW. But those that claim CCW permit holders are somehow better than those without are ridiculous.
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USA-1 said:
So you deny that those murders were committed by CCW permit holders?
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Still attempting to reiterate things that have already been disproven? How disingenuous.

Not too bright, either.

Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[61]

Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population. Florida, which has issued over 1,408,907 permits in twenty one years, has revoked only 166 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,500 permits for any reason.[62]
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Goshin said:
I just checked the source you linked to. It appears to be a very biased and questionable one.

For one thing, the Violence Policy Center is strongly biased against private firearms and part of their purpose is to promote gun control legislation.

Violence Policy Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The VPC has been criticized for biased or inaccurate studies before:

Criticism of the VPC

Hardly makes them objective... indeed they have been criticized by OTHER gun control orgs for some of their positions. Not much of a source.

For instance, the very first case study was about Micheal MacLendon. I looked up the story mentioned in the case study. In that story, there is no mention of MacLendon having a CCW. In fact, the story says this:

McLendon had been a Marine briefly but was discharged for falsifying information.
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Officials: Alabama shooter depressed over failures
If he was dishonorably discharged from the US military, in many states that would bar him from obtaining a CCW.


A virulently biased gun-control advocacy group whose accuracy, honesty and reasonableness has been widely questioned isn't much of a counter argument.

EVEN IF the Eleven cases listed on the link to which you provided are all truly about CCW's that killed more than one person (which I doubt the accuracy of for reasons already given), that would still be 11 people out of somewhere around twenty million CCW's in America. That would be 0.000055%... a very very low ratio.

How many mass murders have there been total, in the USA, in the past twenty years? If you define mass murder as one individual killing three or more people, there may have been hundreds. Below is a partial list of mass killings that is by no means complete. You have a list of 11 people that allegedly committed mass murder and allegedly had CCW's from a clearly biased source... even if we take it at face value there are obviously several dozen non-CCW mass murderers to every one CCW?

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims]List of mass murderers and spree killers by number of victims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Again, this goes along with what I was saying, and what statistics prove: CCW holders are on average FAR more law abiding than the general public. They are statistically FAR LESS of a threat to anyone than people among the non-CCW general population. There is NO reason to believe that allowing adults with CCW to carry on campus would increase the risk to anyone.
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It is a two-edged sword.

Having a CCW could stop a shooter from multi shootings. Having a CCW puts another potential for accidental shooting.

Are either of those statements false?
The first statement definitely could have been true at the Universisty of Virginia Tech. I almost wonder if someday we don't see a mass shooting at a water park.Which brings up a question for those with CCW, do you cary it everywhere?

The second statement reminds me of a recent event in which a guy was at a local Costco using the restroom. He dropped his pants to use the toilet and his gun fell to the ground and shot off a round, fortunately not hitting anybody.
 
Crosscheck said:
It is a two-edged sword.

Having a CCW could stop a shooter from multi shootings. Having a CCW puts another potential for accidental shooting.

Are either of those statements false?
The first statement definitely could have been true at the Universisty of Virginia Tech. I almost wonder if someday we don't see a mass shooting at a water park.Which brings up a question for those with CCW, do you cary it everywhere?

The second statement reminds me of a recent event in which a guy was at a local Costco using the restroom. He dropped his pants to use the toilet and his gun fell to the ground and shot off a round, fortunately not hitting anybody.
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There are also many instances of cops having accidental discharges. Not long ago we were treated to a utube video of a cop shooting himself in the leg in front of a bunch of school children. Good thing it was his leg and not some kid's head.

Back when I was in LE, I knew four cops that had AD's on duty.

You don't have to search hard to find stories in the news of cops shooting the wrong person, or shooting under dubious circumstances.

Frankly, to this point, CCW's have a better record than law enforcement. Perhaps we should not allow cops to carry on campus either? :mrgreen:

(/irony)
 
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Crosscheck said:
I almost wonder if someday we don't see a mass shooting at a water park.Which brings up a question for those with CCW, do you cary it everywhere?
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Yes, I carry at the water park. :mrgreen:

If you're extra nice, maybe I'll PM you and explain how.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
From my observation, in today's world we have less of a sense of morality, less of a sense of altruism, more of a sense of entitlement and impulsivity, and more of a sense of selfishness. Combine these things together and you see a lot more senseless acting out.
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I agree with that..... :idea:
 
If anybody cares about the OP still, there is lots of new info coming out.

This woman "accidentally" shot her brother years ago, and was also a suspect in the attempted mail-bombing of a Harvard professor.

Apparently she's been a wingnut for some time, and there has been evidence of her mopery and dopery, but she kept on getting away with it until this final blowup.

Maybe we need wingnut control instead of gun control. :mrgreen:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
This teacher has zero to do with what I was discussing. She was obviously mentally unbalanced and her behavior should have no impact on whether or not someone of her age should be allowed to carry a gun. Hers was an isolated incident that cannot be traced to biology or psychology of the human species. No one in a similar position to her should be restricted from carrying a gun because of her actions.
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So the OP doesn't matter?
 
Those gun free zones are really doing the trick. Ain't they?
 
Maybe Schools need to do background checks.

Alleged Ala. killer was suspect in attempted bombing of Harvard professor - Local News Updates - The Boston Globe

The professor who is accused of killing three colleagues at the University of Alabama on Friday was a suspect in the attempted mail bombing of a Harvard Medical School professor in 1993, a law enforcement official said today.


Amy Bishop and her husband, James Anderson, were questioned after a package containing two bombs was sent to the Newton home of Dr. Paul Rosenberg, a professor and doctor at Boston's Children's Hospital.

It was the second startling revelation in two days about the past of Bishop, who is accused of fatally shooting three colleagues and wounding three others Friday afternoon at a faculty meeting on the University of Alabama's Huntsville, Ala. campus.

A Massachusetts police chief revealed Saturday that Bishop had fatally shot her brother in 1986.

Rosenberg was opening mail, which had been set aside by a cat-sitter, when he returned from a Caribbean vacation on Dec. 19, 1993, according to Globe reports at the time.

Opening a long, thin package addressed to "Mr. Paul Rosenberg M.D.," he saw wires and a cylinder inside. He and his wife ran from the house and called police.

The package contained two 6-inch pipe bombs connected to two nine-volt batteries.

In March 1994, the Globe reported that federal investigators had identified a prime suspect in the case. But the article did not name the suspect.


A law enforcement official said today that the investigation by the US Postal Service and the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms focused on Bishop, a Harvard postdoctoral fellow who was working in the human biochemstry lab at Children's Hospital at the time, and her husband, Anderson.

Bishop surfaced as a suspect because she was allegedly concerned that she was going to receive a negative evaluation from Rosenberg on her doctorate work, the official said. The official said investigators believed she had a motive to target Rosenberg and were concerned that she had a history of violence, given that she had shot her brother to death in 1986.
 
Wild ScottD uses reflect!

ScottD said:
Jerry is confused. Jerry hurts himself in his confusion.

I can make you into a Pokemon too. Not really an effective means of debate.
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it's not very efective!

Jerry uses data!!

Jerry said:
EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES

More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

<snip>

Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.

<snip>
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Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
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Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.
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ScottD's argument dies!!

It's super effective!!

Who will anti-gun send out?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You're making me laugh at how narrow your understanding of this issue is. Firstly, you do understand that if a drunk driver kills someone, they being drunk does not mitigate that they killed someone. So, regardless of the research, if someone, 21, killed someone with a gun, they would still be responsible. So, that little monologue of yours has been successfully rendered irrelevant. Secondly, with modern technology, the research confirming what we already know about teens/young adults is fairly new, but it demonstrates that this age group is more impulsive and less able to manage their emotions rationally because of biological reasons. Thirdly, one must also look at societal situations. Being on a college campus, a stressful environment, is quite different both socially and culturally when COMBINED with these developmental issues then other scenarios. Also, your statistics of 21 year olds vs. 30 year olds is skewed by the fact that far fewer 21 year olds own guns then 30 year olds.

And yes, I am licensed as a psychotherapist and have been for 20 years. I give talks/lectures on the topic of the adolescent brain and have read a bit of research on it. I would have thought that someone who claims to have your education would have been aware of it.
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I have never seen anything from you before that remotely caused me to even be curious about what you do. There is a difference between being educated (which I am) and being interested-which I was not

BTW do you have any proof of your claim that there are far more 30 year olds who own guns than 21 year olds? I bet that is something you made up
 
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TurtleDude said:
I have never seen anything from you before that remotely caused me to even be curious about what you do. There is a difference between being educated (which I am) and being interested-which I was not
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Then try not to make smarmy remarks and you might not get them back.

BTW do you have any proof of your claim that there are far more 30 year olds who own guns than 21 year olds? I bet that is something you made up
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I wouldn't bet if I were you. You'll look real foolish. Remember, not agreeing with something doesn't mean it's wrong. Good thing to note.

I found the information in two sources. First, a survey done by researchers at Harvard (the researchers having tracked gun ownership over the past 25 years), who sampled homes in the US for gun ownership demographics. 2770 homes were surveyed. Of those homes, 726 (26%) owned firearms; the breakdown of these numbers are as follows: 16% of gun owners were registered to <25 year olds; 26% to those between 25-44; 30% to those between 44-64; and 27% to those >or=65.

The second source comes from The National Gun Policy Survey from the University of Chicago. It's age breakdown is a little larger: 13.3% < 30 own a gun; 20.6% 30-39; 28.8% 40-49; 29.4% 50-65; 29.2 > 65.

Clearly no matter how you look at it, as folks get older, the are more likely to own a gun.

Links to the sources:

How Many Guns Are There and Who Owns Them? - Characteristics Of Gun Owners
The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- Hepburn et al. 13 (1): 15 -- Injury Prevention
The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- -- Injury Prevention
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Then try not to make smarmy remarks and you might not get them back.



I wouldn't bet if I were you. You'll look real foolish. Remember, not agreeing with something doesn't mean it's wrong. Good thing to note.

I found the information in two sources. First, a survey done by researchers at Harvard (the researchers having tracked gun ownership over the past 25 years), who sampled homes in the US for gun ownership demographics. 2770 homes were surveyed. Of those homes, 726 (26%) owned firearms; the breakdown of these numbers are as follows: 16% of gun owners were registered to <25 year olds; 26% to those between 25-44; 30% to those between 44-64; and 27% to those >or=65.

The second source comes from The National Gun Policy Survey from the University of Chicago. It's age breakdown is a little larger: 13.3% < 30 own a gun; 20.6% 30-39; 28.8% 40-49; 29.4% 50-65; 29.2 > 65.

Clearly no matter how you look at it, as folks get older, the are more likely to own a gun.

Links to the sources:

How Many Guns Are There and Who Owns Them? - Characteristics Of Gun Owners
The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- Hepburn et al. 13 (1): 15 -- Injury Prevention
The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- -- Injury Prevention
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Those surveys are notoriously inaccurate. Many gun owners refuse to answer such surveys accurately because they are rightly suspicious of the government or academics knowing what they have

and furthermore there is a difference between 10 21 year olds each owning one gun vs 5 thirty year olds owning 4 guns each. You see people who own guns tend to own more as they get older. Very different matter.

For example, the City of Cincinnati passed a law in 1989 requiring people to register certain "assault weapons". Less than 100 were registered. At the time I was general counsel for the largest NRA gun club in the USA and counsel for two of the 4 biggest dealers in greater Cincinnati. I knew for a fact that these two shops had sold close to a thousand weapons that required registration to people who lived within the jurisdiction of Cincinnati. Yet the mayor claimed there were only 100 or so said weapons in Cincinnati.

People just ignored the now repealed silly law
 
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