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3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

USA-1 said:
According to the new Violence Policy Center on-line resource CCW Killers, during the period May 2007 through October 2009 concealed handgun permit holders killed eight law enforcement officers and 77 private citizens (including 10 shooters who killed themselves after an attack).


http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwmassshootings.pdf
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I just checked the source you linked to. It appears to be a very biased and questionable one.

For one thing, the Violence Policy Center is strongly biased against private firearms and part of their purpose is to promote gun control legislation.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Policy_Center]Violence Policy Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


The VPC has been criticized for biased or inaccurate studies before:

Criticism of the VPC

Hardly makes them objective... indeed they have been criticized by OTHER gun control orgs for some of their positions. Not much of a source.

For instance, the very first case study was about Micheal MacLendon. I looked up the story mentioned in the case study. In that story, there is no mention of MacLendon having a CCW. In fact, the story says this:
McLendon had been a Marine briefly but was discharged for falsifying information.
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Officials: Alabama shooter depressed over failures
If he was dishonorably discharged from the US military, in many states that would bar him from obtaining a CCW.


A virulently biased gun-control advocacy group whose accuracy, honesty and reasonableness has been widely questioned isn't much of a counter argument.

EVEN IF the Eleven cases listed on the link to which you provided are all truly about CCW's that killed more than one person (which I doubt the accuracy of for reasons already given), that would still be 11 people out of somewhere around twenty million CCW's in America. That would be 0.000055%... a very very low ratio.

How many mass murders have there been total, in the USA, in the past twenty years? If you define mass murder as one individual killing three or more people, there may have been hundreds. Below is a partial list of mass killings that is by no means complete. You have a list of 11 people that allegedly committed mass murder and allegedly had CCW's from a clearly biased source... even if we take it at face value there are obviously several dozen non-CCW mass murderers to every one CCW?

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims[/ame]

Again, this goes along with what I was saying, and what statistics prove: CCW holders are on average FAR more law abiding than the general public. They are statistically FAR LESS of a threat to anyone than people among the non-CCW general population. There is NO reason to believe that allowing adults with CCW to carry on campus would increase the risk to anyone.
 
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USA-1 said:
I am talking about carrying at school. Many states have open carry laws and if all students are allowed to carry open or concealed it very well could become a fad.
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Very few states allow open carry of handguns in public places by persons without permits. Of those that do, I haven't noticed teenagers walking around a shopping center packing guns openly as a fashion statement. There is no basis for this argument.
 
Ethereal said:
I don't think it would be a good idea to have a lot of students armed because of the confusion it would cause in a life-or-death situation. Shooting a stationary target and knowing the weapon safety rules is different than taking down a dynamic and armed target in an urban environment with thousands of civilians around. The latter requires an understanding of battlefield dynamics that does not come with a CCW permit. In my opinion, anyone who wants to carry a firearm on campus should go through an advanced shooting course; that way we don't have multiple heroes running around the campus mistakenly shooting one another or other students.
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With all due respect, Ethereal, I see this as an extension of the argument that CCW "will cause wild-west bloodbaths" or "people will be shooting people by mistake" in the more general sense.

What is more crowded than the downtown of a big city? Yet there are quite a few large cities where CCW is permitted, and they have not experienced these problems.

I was in Atlanta recently and spent quite a bit of time downtown packing my pistol; I was most assuredly not the only one. However this notion that when some criminal starts shooting, that there will be dozens of would-be heroes causing a general mass-gunfight and killing innocents by mistake... it hasn't happened, even in crowded big-city downtown areas where CCW is legal, like Atlanta.

I don't think this is an issue. I think people just have a blind spot about the whole campus thing because it is a school; and that phrase guns at school conjures up images of children running around tripping over AK47's.
 
Goshin said:
With all due respect, Ethereal, I see this as an extension of the argument that CCW "will cause wild-west bloodbaths" or "people will be shooting people by mistake" in the more general sense.

What is more crowded than the downtown of a big city? Yet there are quite a few large cities where CCW is permitted, and they have not experienced these problems.

I was in Atlanta recently and spent quite a bit of time downtown packing my pistol; I was most assuredly not the only one. However this notion that when some criminal starts shooting, that there will be dozens of would-be heroes causing a general mass-gunfight and killing innocents by mistake... it hasn't happened, even in crowded big-city downtown areas where CCW is legal, like Atlanta.

I don't think this is an issue. I think people just have a blind spot about the whole campus thing because it is a school; and that phrase guns at school conjures up images of children running around tripping over AK47's.
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I just think there needs to be some kind of organization within the school community; a standard of verbiage, escalation of force, tactics, etc - some kind of protocol.
 
Goshin said:
Very few states allow open carry of handguns in public places by persons without permits. Of those that do, I haven't noticed teenagers walking around a shopping center packing guns openly as a fashion statement. There is no basis for this argument.
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All but 6 states allow open carry. You don't see it because most places like schools have bans on guns.

450px-Open_Carry_Casper_Wyoming.jpg
 
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Goshin said:
Hi Cap. :2wave:

Is that an admission that most people these days are, generally, "bad people" to a far greater degree or commonality than was the case in, say, the 1950's or 60's?

What is "a different time" really, than an assertion that people in general were different? What did a majority of people have back then, that so many today lack?

It certainly wasn't material things. There was lots of poverty in the 50's.
It certainly wasn't people not having opportunities and things to do. Back in the 50's, race and sex were more likely to limit one's opportunities than today, and as for diversions many small towns had a malt shop and a movie theater and that was it.
Hardly anybody saw a shrink in the 1950's. Most people didn't lock their doors, even though they might live a few miles from a street where the houses were shacks and the poor folks that lived there had to butcher their own chickens if they wanted meat to eat.

Not material things or cultural sophistication then.

What was it they had, then, that we lack, now... that guns were more commonplace but things like this rarely ever happened?

I have my own ideas but I'm curious what you think.
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From my observation, in today's world we have less of a sense of morality, less of a sense of altruism, more of a sense of entitlement and impulsivity, and more of a sense of selfishness. Combine these things together and you see a lot more senseless acting out.
 
TurtleDude said:
yeah young men were treated like young men and trusted to act like men. An 18 year old who might have to fight the nazis with tanks, flamethrowers, heavy machine guns and fighter planes was probably able to be trusted with a 45 pistol

of course back then you could buy a gun by mail at age 15
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Trust is a good point. Then, you knew who your neighbors were, you knew the folks in your town. There was less suspicion and paranoia about those around you. Technology may have brought us closer, but it has also made us less connected.
 
ptif219 said:
If they can get a concealed license what is the problem
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People at that age have a far less capacity to control their impulses and have a far greater potential to act out on their emotions before thinking. This is a biological situation based on the limbic system and brain structure development. It usually resolves itself by the age of 23 or so, but in a highly stressful environment such as school, both academically and socially, potential problems are far greater. I am completely against guns being allowed on any school campus because of the biological/brain structure issue.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
People at that age have a far less capacity to control their impulses and have a far greater potential to act out on their emotions before thinking. This is a biological situation based on the limbic system and brain structure development. It usually resolves itself by the age of 23 or so, but in a highly stressful environment such as school, both academically and socially, potential problems are far greater. I am completely against guns being allowed on any school campus because of the biological/brain structure issue.
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I am against making schools gun free zones where active shooters can kill and kill and kill

My nephew was in Iraq carrying a machine gun at age 21 in Iraq, seems to me that is a bit more stressful than majoring in history at Ohio state and he never wigged out and went postal
 
TurtleDude said:
I am against making schools gun free zones where active shooters can kill and kill and kill

My nephew was in Iraq carrying a machine gun at age 21 in Iraq, seems to me that is a bit more stressful than majoring in history at Ohio state and he never wigged out and went postal
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Completely different situation. In Iraq, using the gun is standard for defense on a daily basis because of the likelihood of an attack. This is not the culture on a Ohio State campus.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Completely different situation. In Iraq, using the gun is standard for defense on a daily basis because of the likelihood of an attack. This is not the culture on a Ohio State campus.
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I don't see the point you are trying to make

I kept my shotgun in my room in college where I was three times all-america. I never even considered shooting anyone
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't see the point you are trying to make

I kept my shotgun in my room in college where I was three times all-america. I never even considered shooting anyone
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So? That was you, which is anecdotal. Maybe YOUR brain developed more quickly. The average person's brain does not.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
So? That was you, which is anecdotal. Maybe YOUR brain developed more quickly. The average person's brain does not.
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I don't buy your claims

in ohio and almost every other state you can get a CCW at 21. Guns were common on college campuses up to a few decades ago and we didn't have problems.
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't buy your claims
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You don't have to buy them. They are legitimate research that is credible and valid. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them invalid.

in ohio and almost every other state you can get a CCW at 21. Guns were common on college campuses up to a few decades ago and we didn't have problems.
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So, we combine the research with some of the cultural changes that I explained, and we have the explanation for the problem and the reason to not allow guns on school campuses.
 
Goshin said:
Show me a few cases where someone with a CCW has committed a mass shooting and you might have some point. It hasn't happened. Nor have laws forbidding guns on campus stopped any person determined to commit mass murder, so your point is utterly moot.

I refer again to the fact, which I posted with sources, that CCW holders are far more law abiding than the general citizenry and that that tiny portion which commit gun crimes is far lower than that of the general citizenry. Statistically you are far safer in the company of 10 CCW permit holders than you are in the company of ten random strangers.


I can just imagine some criminal, armed to the teeth and intent on committing mass-murder, arriving to find a sign saying "No Guns Allowed", then scuffing his feet and saying "Darn it, I guess I will have to go somewhere else." :rofl

My point stands: statistically there is no reason to believe that allowing adult CCW on campus would increase risks at all, and there is the possibility of saving lives the next time one of these mass-shooters goes off.
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There is a lot of sense to that. Am certain when the teacher started shooting the victims there wished one of them had a gun to pull out. Whether they could have reacted quickly enough is queshionable.

Maybe it is my bias but have you ever been to a gun show and seen some of the characters? I don't know if I feel safe if they have a gun hidden on them or not. Of course I am up here by North Idaho and there is fringe group of militants with an IQ of a butter dish.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
You don't have to buy them. They are legitimate research that is credible and valid. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them invalid.



So, we combine the research with some of the cultural changes that I explained, and we have the explanation for the problem and the reason to not allow guns on school campuses.
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we have had several mass shootings at universities where an active killer was able to kill many unchallenged.

That alone cuts against your position

the leading expert on how to deal with active shooters is John Benner of Tactical Defense Institute of West Union Ohio. He disagrees with your premise. I tend to trust someone who is a professional in this field going back to being an MP in Nam to being captain of the county swat team for two decades.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
You'd be surprised how many security guards aren't allow to have weapons or loaded ones.
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true

BTW the average large city cop cannot shoot worth a damn either
 
USA-1 said:
That is true because to get a CCW you can't be convicted of a crime. However I do know a couple of CCW holders that are paranoid bordering on psychotic. If conceal carry was permitted on campus it could become a fad and less desirables would start packing.
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The two I know are not paranoid or psychotic, but they do suffer from an inferiority complex.
 
TurtleDude said:
I am against making schools gun free zones where active shooters can kill and kill and kill

My nephew was in Iraq carrying a machine gun at age 21 in Iraq, seems to me that is a bit more stressful than majoring in history at Ohio state and he never wigged out and went postal
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But there have been quite a few suicides in Iraq by military members.
 
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