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Thread: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

  1. #121
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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Wild ScottD uses reflect!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottD View Post
    Jerry is confused. Jerry hurts himself in his confusion.

    I can make you into a Pokemon too. Not really an effective means of debate.
    it's not very efective!

    Jerry uses data!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
    In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
    By THE WASHINGTON TIMES


    More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

    <snip>

    Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

    This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.


    <snip>
    Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
    Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
    A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
    Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**


    The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

    The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

    Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population)
    .

    Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.
    ScottD's argument dies!!

    It's super effective!!

    Who will anti-gun send out?

  2. #122
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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You're making me laugh at how narrow your understanding of this issue is. Firstly, you do understand that if a drunk driver kills someone, they being drunk does not mitigate that they killed someone. So, regardless of the research, if someone, 21, killed someone with a gun, they would still be responsible. So, that little monologue of yours has been successfully rendered irrelevant. Secondly, with modern technology, the research confirming what we already know about teens/young adults is fairly new, but it demonstrates that this age group is more impulsive and less able to manage their emotions rationally because of biological reasons. Thirdly, one must also look at societal situations. Being on a college campus, a stressful environment, is quite different both socially and culturally when COMBINED with these developmental issues then other scenarios. Also, your statistics of 21 year olds vs. 30 year olds is skewed by the fact that far fewer 21 year olds own guns then 30 year olds.

    And yes, I am licensed as a psychotherapist and have been for 20 years. I give talks/lectures on the topic of the adolescent brain and have read a bit of research on it. I would have thought that someone who claims to have your education would have been aware of it.
    I have never seen anything from you before that remotely caused me to even be curious about what you do. There is a difference between being educated (which I am) and being interested-which I was not

    BTW do you have any proof of your claim that there are far more 30 year olds who own guns than 21 year olds? I bet that is something you made up
    Last edited by TurtleDude; 02-15-10 at 12:08 AM.



  3. #123
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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I have never seen anything from you before that remotely caused me to even be curious about what you do. There is a difference between being educated (which I am) and being interested-which I was not
    Then try not to make smarmy remarks and you might not get them back.

    BTW do you have any proof of your claim that there are far more 30 year olds who own guns than 21 year olds? I bet that is something you made up
    I wouldn't bet if I were you. You'll look real foolish. Remember, not agreeing with something doesn't mean it's wrong. Good thing to note.

    I found the information in two sources. First, a survey done by researchers at Harvard (the researchers having tracked gun ownership over the past 25 years), who sampled homes in the US for gun ownership demographics. 2770 homes were surveyed. Of those homes, 726 (26%) owned firearms; the breakdown of these numbers are as follows: 16% of gun owners were registered to <25 year olds; 26% to those between 25-44; 30% to those between 44-64; and 27% to those >or=65.

    The second source comes from The National Gun Policy Survey from the University of Chicago. It's age breakdown is a little larger: 13.3% < 30 own a gun; 20.6% 30-39; 28.8% 40-49; 29.4% 50-65; 29.2 > 65.

    Clearly no matter how you look at it, as folks get older, the are more likely to own a gun.

    Links to the sources:

    How Many Guns Are There and Who Owns Them? - Characteristics Of Gun Owners
    The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- Hepburn et al. 13 (1): 15 -- Injury Prevention
    The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- -- Injury Prevention
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    So the OP doesn't matter?
    You asked a question. I gave an answer.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #125
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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Then try not to make smarmy remarks and you might not get them back.



    I wouldn't bet if I were you. You'll look real foolish. Remember, not agreeing with something doesn't mean it's wrong. Good thing to note.

    I found the information in two sources. First, a survey done by researchers at Harvard (the researchers having tracked gun ownership over the past 25 years), who sampled homes in the US for gun ownership demographics. 2770 homes were surveyed. Of those homes, 726 (26%) owned firearms; the breakdown of these numbers are as follows: 16% of gun owners were registered to <25 year olds; 26% to those between 25-44; 30% to those between 44-64; and 27% to those >or=65.

    The second source comes from The National Gun Policy Survey from the University of Chicago. It's age breakdown is a little larger: 13.3% < 30 own a gun; 20.6% 30-39; 28.8% 40-49; 29.4% 50-65; 29.2 > 65.

    Clearly no matter how you look at it, as folks get older, the are more likely to own a gun.

    Links to the sources:

    How Many Guns Are There and Who Owns Them? - Characteristics Of Gun Owners
    The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- Hepburn et al. 13 (1): 15 -- Injury Prevention
    The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- -- Injury Prevention
    Those surveys are notoriously inaccurate. Many gun owners refuse to answer such surveys accurately because they are rightly suspicious of the government or academics knowing what they have

    and furthermore there is a difference between 10 21 year olds each owning one gun vs 5 thirty year olds owning 4 guns each. You see people who own guns tend to own more as they get older. Very different matter.

    For example, the City of Cincinnati passed a law in 1989 requiring people to register certain "assault weapons". Less than 100 were registered. At the time I was general counsel for the largest NRA gun club in the USA and counsel for two of the 4 biggest dealers in greater Cincinnati. I knew for a fact that these two shops had sold close to a thousand weapons that required registration to people who lived within the jurisdiction of Cincinnati. Yet the mayor claimed there were only 100 or so said weapons in Cincinnati.

    People just ignored the now repealed silly law



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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    By the way I am still waiting for proof that 21 year olds-the youngest age someone could legally obtain a CCW or CCH license in any state of the Union-are more prone to misusing legally carried guns compared to 24 year olds at a rate that has any significance. Since 45 states or so have determined that is the proper lower limit that sort of trumps the claims of "psychotherapists"

    If someone is mature enough to be able to contract (18) stand trial for capital murder (18), get married without parental consent (18 or lower in a few jurisdictions), enter the military, vote for politicians, then someone 3 years older is certainly mature enough to carry a weapon and millions of men have done that throughout our history in service to the country and didn't cause problems.

    The average age of an infantry soldier in Nam was what-19? of 2nd Lt's commanding platoons? 21-22.



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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    The perp walks, talks, and smells like a sociopath, perhaps a psychopath but I don't think so, as she appears to have a hard time hiding her anger and she's no charmer. This woman couldn't charm a horny blind man with a million dollars. She's one cold bitch and I hope she fries.

    I see some nasty history is making its way into the media. I'll bet killing her brother was no accident. Someone gave her the benefit of the doubt on that one when they shouldn't have.

  8. #128
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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post

    The average age of an infantry soldier in Nam was what-19? .
    20

    General Statistics Vietnam War
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by USA-1 View Post
    thanks-I saw 19 for years in different publications. Either way, below the minimum age for getting a CCW license in the USA



  10. #130
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    Re: 3 Dead in Shooting at University of Alabama Campus

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Then try not to make smarmy remarks and you might not get them back.



    I wouldn't bet if I were you. You'll look real foolish. Remember, not agreeing with something doesn't mean it's wrong. Good thing to note.

    I found the information in two sources. First, a survey done by researchers at Harvard (the researchers having tracked gun ownership over the past 25 years), who sampled homes in the US for gun ownership demographics. 2770 homes were surveyed. Of those homes, 726 (26%) owned firearms; the breakdown of these numbers are as follows: 16% of gun owners were registered to <25 year olds; 26% to those between 25-44; 30% to those between 44-64; and 27% to those >or=65.

    The second source comes from The National Gun Policy Survey from the University of Chicago. It's age breakdown is a little larger: 13.3% < 30 own a gun; 20.6% 30-39; 28.8% 40-49; 29.4% 50-65; 29.2 > 65.

    Clearly no matter how you look at it, as folks get older, the are more likely to own a gun.

    Links to the sources:

    How Many Guns Are There and Who Owns Them? - Characteristics Of Gun Owners
    The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- Hepburn et al. 13 (1): 15 -- Injury Prevention
    The US gun stock: results from the 2004 national firearms survey -- -- Injury Prevention

    Cap, I looked at the top link and didn't see raw data or how the survey was conducted, or whether the sample was nationwide, etc. I'd have to have a few doubts.

    On the second link, there was some more data: national distribution, etc. But their numbers were odd: 42 million US households with guns? The latest figures I've heard were 80 to 90 million households.

    Also, at least one seems to be focused on registered guns...and most Southern states (and many midWest states) do not require guns to be registered. Not to mention, as the Turtle said, a lot of gun owners would be reluctant to tell some survey-taker what they had... I know I wouldn't answer such a survey. You never know for sure who you're talking to or what their agenda is, you see.

    On the whole I think this puts those studies in a somewhat dubious light, as to the accuracy of their stats.

    I've read the recent reports that certain aspects of brain development, specifically those relating to self-restraint and impulse control, tend not to reach full development until around 22-25yo. I won't dispute that; it makes sense to me. Yet I'm not sure that it is the whole story: we have plenty of evidence that 18-21 yo's are capable of handling enormous responsibility under many circumstances. The example of 18-21yo's serving in the military being one such example. Another would be, as some older posters have noted, that back in the 50's and early 60's many teens had ready access to guns and even brought hunting rifles to school, yet Columbine-type incidents were effectively unheard-of.

    As I said, I will not dispute that the average 25yo has better impulse control and ability to judge outcomes than the average 18-21yo; I'm sure that is generally true. I think the more relevant question is whether the average 21yo is perfectly capable of exercising functionally adequate impulse control and good judgement in regards to CCW.

    It would appear that at least 40 states have decided the answer to that question is "yes", because 21 is when CCW is allowed.

    Now if you want to argue that the average 21-22yo college student is less responsible than the average 21-22yo working-man or military enlistee... you might have a better case.

    But whose fault is that? Is it our society's fault for letting college be an extension of irresponsible adolescence, letting those young adults (they are not "kids") continue to act like 17yo party-animals, when some of their same-age generational compatriots are non-comms leading infantry squads in Tikrit, and some of their other same-age compatriots have a full-time job, bills, a spouse and children to take care of? Hmmmm.... food for thought perhaps.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 02-15-10 at 09:50 PM.

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