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Germany speaks out in favour of European army

Well, I realize the common attitude, so many years later by generations that didn't participate or endure it, is to pat each other on the back for fear that too much credit in one place will make others feel bad, but history is history.

History can be interpreted, and frequently is. It's not so simple and clear cut like you make it out to be. Life doesn't work that way, as simple and pleasing to some as a simplistic view may be.
 
History can be interpreted, and frequently is.

Yes...and with every new generation, this interpretation becomes more altering than those who actually lived the event. In other words, after another half century, America will not have even been involved.

In the 50s they were all about America's involvement and our station at the Berlin Wall. In the 60s it was all about America's sin in Vietnam...and our station at the Berlin Wall. In the 70s it was all about American culture....and our station at the Berlin Wall. In the 80s it was all about our kick starting armegeddon...and our station at the Berlin Wall. In the 90s it was all about dismissing America entirely. And in this decade we are Nazi germany re-incarnated. And all along we have steadily had less and less to do with World War II in Europe as they completely dismiss the Pacific as a side issue.

Today we get to hear about how our contribution to WWII was insignificant because the Russians really won that war for them and that the Soviets defeated themselves during the Cold War. Today, our culture is seen a diseased spreading of anti-culture. Our activities are compared to Europe's worst offenses in history. Our identity is constantly attacked by those who have none. We are blamed for every economic woe, despite our involvement to keep the world out of economic stress in '98 over Asian markets. Our humanitarian efforts are constantly dismissed even though we lead the UN's missions and encompass the majority of military local aid in most efforts.

Such resentment comes from some place.
 
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Today we get to hear about how our contribution to WWII was insignificant because the Russians really won that war for them and that the Soviets defeated themselves during the Cold War. Today, our culture is seen a diseased spreading of anti-culture. Our activities are compared to Europe's worst offenses in history.

Well I don't think that most people think that America's contribution to WW2 was insignificant. It's not necessarily based on resentment to point out certain historical facts that may differ from the long-standing self-congratulating view of Americans. If there is resentment, it probably stems from the dominant American views that I pointed out in the last sentence.

Some of you Yanks really have a persecution complex that you need to deal with. :roll:
 
Well I don't think that most people think that America's contribution to WW2 was insignificant. It's not necessarily based on resentment to point out certain historical facts that may differ from the long-standing self-congratulating view of Americans.

Let's not kid each other. If the European generation of World War II were able to see what today's European generation spew they would call them liars. It is hardly a matter of realizing "facts." It's more like creating an easier "fact" Europeans today can live with. Germany wasn't so bad, was it? And Russia has certainly always been just misunderstood, hasn't it? I mean, that is where their revisions are heading.

Europe is in need of another identity lesson. And make no mistake...there is resentment. Europe has conducted studies and written extensively on this fact on their own. Such can be found on the Web.


Some of you Yanks really have a persecution complex that you need to deal with. :roll:

Perhaps. But at least find something we can be persecuted for and be less hypocritical with the finger pointing.
 
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Well I don't think that most people think that America's contribution to WW2 was insignificant. It's not necessarily based on resentment to point out certain historical facts that may differ from the long-standing self-congratulating view of Americans. If there is resentment, it probably stems from the dominant American views that I pointed out in the last sentence.

Some of you Yanks really have a persecution complex that you need to deal with. :roll:
The resentment that many Americans have for the European attitude (related to WWII) began during the bombing of Omar Khadafi. Remember when France would let the US fly through its air space? That is just one example of what cause the rift in current times. Americans felt betrayed.
 
The resentment that many Americans have for the European attitude (related to WWII) began during the bombing of Omar Khadafi. Remember when France would let the US fly through its air space? That is just one example of what cause the rift in current times. Americans felt betrayed.

That's just one example. They are so petrified over enemies that they screw over allies. Their Suez Canal behavior was in conflict with America's efforts for the region. Their whining about not being consulted by the UN in regards to America leading the mission in Somalia. De Gaul's statements of superiority over English speaking nations in the 50s went a long way to creating a rift between English speaking nations and them. American G.I.s getting pick pocketed and jumped in the streets of Paris in the late 40s was quite a slap in the face.

France has always been a pain in the ass and their constant attempts to derail American efforts rather than be on the team is old hat. This thing over Iraq was merely the latest. They have spent decades trying to recapture old glory. Their weapons sales flooding into Africa and the Middle East and their nuclear weapons have always been about showing how they can be equal.

They have always been reluctant team members and they have spent decades ensuring that they define the face of Europe. This attitude is historical where they have plenty of ocasions sold out the continent to preserve themsleves. Today they seek to tear down others so that their depravity can be justified.
 
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That's just one example. Their Suez Canal behavior was in conflict with America's efforts for the region. Their whining about not being consuloted by the UN in regards to America leading the mission in Somalia. De Gaull's statements of superiority over English speaking nations in the 50s. American G.I.s getting pick pocketed and jumped in the streets of Paris in the late 40s.

France has always been a pain in the ass and their constant attempts to derail American efforts rather than be on the team is old hat. This thing over Iraq was merely the latest. They have spent decades trying to recapture old glory. Their weapons sales flooding into Africa and the Middle East and their nuclear weapons have always been about showing how they can be equal.

They have always been reluctant team members and they have spent decades ensuring that they define the face of Europe. Now Germany shares the identity. Peas in a pod.
I assume you are agreeing with me.
 
Only after American boots crossed the ocean, once again, and forced you. Until America's involvement, European powers were quite content deliberating over it passing judgement.



Second World War? What about the Cold War? When the Berlin Wall came down an American presence was still in Germany. Bosnia and Kosovo was in the 90s. Today is 2010. What has changed?




Well that's very nice, but a National Guard hiding behind an advanced American machine is hardly something to parade around. Until you can completely defend yourselves, your common defense is the American/British shield and umbrella. Both of which I want back across the ocean for a few decades so that same old lessons can be learned.




What do you mean "what?" Saddam Hussein was a dictator for the West during the Iran/Iraq War. His greatest supplier of weapons came from France. During the 90's he was allowed his throne and his station of oppression because the West wished it so. He was a "western" dictator. The Cold War has more examples. The New Imperialsim era has a plethora of these from Europe alone. The colonial period celebrated this concept of population control. Hussein was one of the last hold outs and he held out because we assured it.




It would be eay if there weren't a World War before that one. Or a Cold War after....Bosnia after....Kosovo after.... Hell, a big part of Clinton's foriegn policy agenda in Europe was ensuring a stable Russia and partnership so that Europe no longer had to be our burden. We are merely waiting for the next trip across the ocean for Europe's sake.



I'm pretty sure that even most of Europe would chastize you greatly for this bout of glorified ignorance. Perhaps you have America confused with a mirror.




Oh we did learn. After two world Wars instigated by Europeans, we learned that left to your own devices the world couldn't be safe and that it would cost American lives in the end. This is why we stuck around for the Cold War and why we have tried to make you play nice with each other since the Berlin Wall came down. With America's youth, you would think that Europe would be more parental instead of childish in your resentments towards the upstarts across the Atlantic.

But perhaps it is Europe that has finally learned the lesson. This attempt to create a "unified" military may be exactly what you have to do in order to ensure your own defense for a change so that America can focus more on our own issues. If only we had a Cold War to primarily look inward at someone else's expense. But we aren't so bad. Due to our culture, we don't have any where near the immigrant and terror issues you have even after your Cold War dedicated focus inward.



Because it absolves you of responsibility and gives you an excuse to turn away. Did you know that the UN labeled Kosovo as "illegal?" Even the high and mighty French chose to ignore this bit of international law. Hmmm...the hypocracy of Europeans is only surpassed by the Arabs in the Middle East.




A dictator in America? Do even think before you type or is emotion such a strong thing for you that you can't contain your absurdity? Every military needs a commander and every country needs a leader. And in 50 years, the nations of Europe will continue to have single leaders. What people "want" and what is practical are often two different things.




The Cold War lasted until 1989 and Bosnia and Kosovo was in the 1990s. I'm pretty sure these dates mean that it was not the 1950s. But please....eduate me as to the latest scheme or dream Europeans have to re-model themsleves. In the end, you are a cycle. Your pacifist "nothing bad can happen" attitudes today existed post World War I and pre-World War II. You spent a Cold War doing nothing but benefitting under the "nothing bad can happen" attitude and the 90's griping that there is a reality outside your borders for which you have to take part in for a change. Please enlighten me of Europe's latest "new" attitude.

Left to Europe, the world would be denied until we can label something World War III.


Your view on Europe is completely outdated. You view Europe anno 1950. The reality is something alltogether different.

Your view on European militaries and defense is ridiculous. They arent national guards, but full flexed militaries, far more capable than most militaries of the world.

Your view on Saddam Hussein and the French refusal to join the illegal Iraq war, and your silly theory that France and Germany was in cahoots with Saddam smells like conspiracy theory mixed with Fox News brainwashing. As do your opinion on Europe and European defense in general smell Fox News brainwashing.
Its clear in history that Saddam was more a tool of the US than any European state.

Your view of America and Europe is so 1940s, because this suits your distorted image that America is good and Europe bad.


I am not going to continue to respond to your drivel, conspiracy theories, and fox news opinions. I do wish you a hasty recovery, I can recommend a mix of media as the cure, try some non American ones, try to find a middle point in it all. Anti-brainwash yourself, currently you serve as some puppet for the American fascist agenda(unknowingly!!!), and they have you in a ballgrip.
 
I'm pretty sure that even most of Europe would chastize you greatly for this bout of glorified ignorance. Perhaps you have America confused with a mirror.

100% ACK

Maximus couldn't show you one european party that sells his views. There isn't, it's way out of the box. Your views on the other hand, there are dozens of european sources you could use who simply collaborate your views. Especially the point you made about european leadership in the former territory of Yugoslavia. The cold truth hurts europeans in their pride, makes some of us less .. rational. It should have been the case for european cooperation. After a few sorry attempts and a lot of genocide, it resorted into begging the americans for help. After a year the americans fell for it and Europe played the old game of blaming the americans.
 
That's just one example. They are so petrified over enemies that they screw over allies. Their Suez Canal behavior was in conflict with America's efforts for the region. Their whining about not being consulted by the UN in regards to America leading the mission in Somalia. De Gaul's statements of superiority over English speaking nations in the 50s went a long way to creating a rift between English speaking nations and them. American G.I.s getting pick pocketed and jumped in the streets of Paris in the late 40s was quite a slap in the face.

France has always been a pain in the ass and their constant attempts to derail American efforts rather than be on the team is old hat. This thing over Iraq was merely the latest. They have spent decades trying to recapture old glory. Their weapons sales flooding into Africa and the Middle East and their nuclear weapons have always been about showing how they can be equal.

They have always been reluctant team members and they have spent decades ensuring that they define the face of Europe. This attitude is historical where they have plenty of ocasions sold out the continent to preserve themsleves. Today they seek to tear down others so that their depravity can be justified.

They can't even accept an American winning their damn bike race. I know that sounds trivial, but it's based in the same mentality and inferiority complex that pervades their every thought.
 
So what do Americans thnk about this, how about Europeans, and how about others?

This is a work in progress since the Maastricht treaty. But I mean, "under full parliament control" :confused:

Germany has the biggest say in the parliament.

What for? if it aint broke dont fix it. Whats the point of different countries with different priorities having the same army?
 
They can't even accept an American winning their damn bike race. I know that sounds trivial, but it's based in the same mentality and inferiority complex that pervades their every thought.

Unless no.1 is french, the french always support the underdog in the TDF. They also didn't like Indurain much, won too often adn with too much supremacy to make the race exciting.

You should find a better example, or remember that europeans are just as different in their convictions as are americans. I prefer the latter.
 
Its clear in history that Saddam was more a tool of the US than any European state.

The top three weapon suppliers to Saddam Hussein was the Soviet Union, China, and France (in that order). No other nation on earth came close to what these three did. America was merely the face of diplomacy for the west when it came to keeping Khomeini penned in his corner. And when it came to kicking him out of Kuwait, it was American muscle that did the work. And when it came to containing him for the UN so that France and Germany could benefit from food-for-oil scandals it was America that finally had enough and took him out once and for all. It is clear that he was more of a partner to Europe.

And today, the chief importer of weapons into Africa by far is -ding..ding..ding- hypocritical France.

Your view of America and Europe is so 1940s, because this suits your distorted image that America is good and Europe bad.

Europe's history of global colonization, imperialsim, bad border creations, two World Wars, a Cold War, and neglected genocide as late as the 90s tends to help my view.

If you don't like your history and your region's behaviors, decade after decade, the answer isn't to deny it. Nor is it to tear another nation down for any slip or stutter to make your history "not so bad." The answer is to change. But I see the same Europe today the rest of the world's been seeing for centuries.
 
NATO Sec Gen. Anders Fogh Rasmussen
Chair of Military Committee Giampaolo Di Paolo

Doh!

The "Chair" has nothing to do with it. NATO has been a feast for decades at American expense. While American forces engaged all over the world during the Cold War, NATO did nothing. When genocide was raging in Bosnia, it was President Clinton that pulled NATO in. When Kosovo was in need of bombing it was President Clinton that pulled NATO in. In Afghanistan, it is American forces that place NATO forces and issue mission statements.

....or did you think Europe ran NATO all this time? Get a clue. "Doh!"
 
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I'd love to see this. Of course we would just be setting ourselves up to having to cross the Atlantic Ocean when too much American blood has to be spilt to balance it out again.

What American blood are you talking about? Our embassies and diplomats? I only advocated bringing our military personal back home, Im not advocating isolationism.

We tried to stay our of their affairs dutring WWII, but in the end had to go make a difference.

Because the Japanese attacked us. Before Pearl Harbor there wasnt much sentiment among people to get involved in World War 2. People hated the Nazi's and Fascist Italy this is true but werent gun ho for war.

We tried to stay out of Bosnia and Kosovo, but in the end had to go do what they would not on their lone. America has learned its lessons. Whether they like it or not, they will be parented until they grow up.

That parenting almost got us into a nuclear war with Putin during the whole Georgia episode. I thank God that Georgia wasnt a NATO member.
 
What for? if it aint broke dont fix it. Whats the point of different countries with different priorities having the same army?

It is broke. But it will always be broke because Europe isn't and will never be a single country. It's the same old crap. It's always about competing with America. Their individualisms were too obvious so they invented the EU. Their economies couldn't compete with the Dollar or the Yen so they invented the Euro. Instead of just being true partners on a team of prosperity and power with the English speaking nations they continually seek to disrupt policies and boast "equality." It's a side effect of World War II.

But they weren't even willing to consider themselves our equals. It wasn't long after World War II, they were boasting their superiority over English nations. One event after another they sought to proclaim their independance from the Western pack and gradually chipping away at what makes them feel inferior.

For a region that needed English speaking people across the Channel and Atlantic to save them from themselves, they sure didn't waste any time proclaiming their superiority to us after the fact. Today, it's the Russians that were their ultimate saviors....anybody but English speaking people. Historical isn't it?

This "European Army" is just the next step to pretend that they are one and can compete. Now, it's on the military level. What I see is the leading nations of Europe, that have spent decades defying English speaking agendas around the globe, stagnating the rest of Europe even more than they do now and doing even more harm to the Western path.
 
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What American blood are you talking about? Our embassies and diplomats? I only advocated bringing our military personal back home, Im not advocating isolationism.

Neither am I. But I do advocate that Europeans be made to bear the brunt of the efforts in their own damn region for a change.

Because the Japanese attacked us. Before Pearl Harbor there wasnt much sentiment among people to get involved in World War 2. People hated the Nazi's and Fascist Italy this is true but werent gun ho for war.

Because ultimately it was their fight to win or lose. Not ours. Yet we went because Europe couldn't handle it on their own. And for this, we are criticized for taking our time as if we didn't have our own war to fight.


That parenting almost got us into a nuclear war with Putin during the whole Georgia episode. I thank God that Georgia wasnt a NATO member.

No it didn't. We were know where near a nuclear war over Georgia. I had Marines deploy to Georgia to assist in their training during that whole debacle. But what if it did? Everything we have done since World War II has "almost" escelated into the next step according to the pundits (Cuban Missile Crisis, Star Wars spending, Georgia?). It's a nuclear world. All the more reason to remain powerful over others, to include some of our allies who have only sought power of their own over us.

Our parenting of Europe since WWII has given them the most peaceful and prosperous period in their entire history. This is fact. And after the Cold War, they were more than willing to watch genocide thrive and possibly spread before they did anything. They claim to learn, but they do not. The biggest part of Clinton's foriegn policy throughout the 90s was to ensure that Europe would no longer threaten our security and peace. This meant that they would have to step up and do so that America doesn't have to.
 
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Maximus couldn't show you one european party that sells his views.

Of course I cannot. Can you?

Thats the problem exactly with multi party/bi party systems. The reason I support a one party system where the people vote on policies rather than the party.
 
What for? if it aint broke dont fix it. Whats the point of different countries with different priorities having the same army?

What is the point of having a DEFENSE? I think we could do that better together.
 
But they weren't even willing to consider themselves our equals. It wasn't long after World War II, they were boasting their superiority over English nations.

Did you ever consider that could be because it is true?

For a region that needed English speaking people across the Channel and Atlantic to save them from themselves, they sure didn't waste any time proclaiming their superiority to us after the fact.

Nor do Americans mention when the French saved them in the civil wars.

Today, it's the Russians that were their ultimate saviors....anybody but English speaking people. Historical isn't it?

Perhaps we just want to give credit where credit is due. We certainly do not need to give any credit to Americans, because they credit themselves all the time. We need to credit someone who is not as self crediting and forget everyone else. So yes, why not mention the Soviets efforts and the UK efforts? All in all with the Americans bragging about themselves all the time, and Europe bragging about the UK and Soviets as well, Americans are still bragged most about.
Thats whats wrong.

This "European Army" is just the next step to pretend that they are one and can compete. Now, it's on the military level. What I see is the leading nations of Europe, that have spent decades defying English speaking agendas around the globe, stagnating the rest of Europe even more than they do now and doing even more harm to the Western path.

Perhaps we are just trying to pave out an alternative direction to the insane global policies of the current United States, whom just like Germany(FOR EXAMPLE), turned from being an open society into a closed one.
 
Of course I cannot. Can you?

To the extend that no matter what party I'd vote for none would deny the simple historic facts you denied, would approve statements like:

Your view on Saddam Hussein and the French refusal to join the illegal Iraq war, and your silly theory that France and Germany was in cahoots with Saddam smells like conspiracy theory mixed with Fox News brainwashing. As do your opinion on Europe and European defense in general smell Fox News brainwashing.
Its clear in history that Saddam was more a tool of the US than any European state.


Thats the problem exactly with multi party/bi party systems. The reason I support a one party system where the people vote on policies rather than the party.
Oh really, how interesting :2razz: Which state best represents the one party sytem in your view?
 
So what do Americans thnk about this, how about Europeans, and how about others?

IMO, the net benefits of such an approach will depend on how it is set up. For example, if the European countries model a common defense force along the lines of how NATO is set up, the design could allow for greater effectiveness without a serious sacrifice of sovereignty. The design of such a force and setting for of authority will probably be the most challenging aspect.

Given the large number of shared interests between the European countries and U.S., I doubt that a European Army would be seen as threatening to the U.S. Arguably, a common European Army could be seen as being in the interests of the U.S., too, as it makes sense for friendly states to have a robust capability for defending themselves.

Finally, in this thread there seems to be an implied, but not too subtle, suggestion that Europe's countries are somehow incapable of managing their affairs and cannot be trusted to shape their own destiny. I strongly disagree.

Europe deserves much credit for having evolved into a prosperous and democratic zone. To be sure, U.S. security guarantees during the Cold War and post-WW II assistance e.g., the Marshall Plan, made significant positive contributions, but the Europeans did a lot on their own. The efforts of the Europeans were indispensable to the outcome.
 
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