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Germany speaks out in favour of European army

AgentM said:
Sounds like a good idea to me. It would be a very tough job though, just with the language issues alone!
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Same problem with NATO and they seem to manage. I know with NATO AWACS the official language in the work place is english.
 
Porchev said:
Same problem with NATO and they seem to manage. I know with NATO AWACS the official language in the work place is english.
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A European army though would be far more integrated then Nato has ever been

And the Language issue would not be to much of a concern I think.

I believe a large number of europeans can speak more then one language
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
A European army though would be far more integrated then Nato has ever been

And the Language issue would not be to much of a concern I think.

I believe a large number of europeans can speak more then one language
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I would hope it would be more integrated.

I know a lot of Europeans speak more than one language; since many learn different languages at a young age (at least I know that is the case in Holland). It's a better system than we have here, where students barely learn any languages in school and usually start it way late.
 
I think it would be great if they actually do it. Since World War II, the defense of much of Europe has been put onto the American taxpayer. It's time the Europeans assume the real costs of securing their own countries.
 
apdst said:
Sounds like a great idea. What could go wrong?
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I think this is probably the first post by you where I have laughed and found you witty. You are making progress.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Anyways.. I mean, American perspective on this would be interesting. Would you see it as helpful, dangerous, detrimental or what exactly?
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Irrelevent. It is impractical and pointless. It would accomplish nothing more than what we see today. In the end, Europe's tribes will constantly threaten the region's integrity.
 
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MSgt said:
Irrelevent. It is impractical and pointless. It would accomplish nothing more than what we see today. In the end, Europe's tribes will constantly threaten its integrity.
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It's no more pointless than anyone else having a military.
 
AgentM said:
It's no more pointless than anyone else having a military.
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Everyone else's military hails from a nation. They follow orders from a distinct single government. A European military will hail from many and remain loyal to parent commands before it does the bidding of a General (or politician) from another. And in those instances where Europe is divided over what to do for another ally, this "unified" military will prove pointless. Another consideration is over the defense of single nations. What if two nations are attacked? Will this "unified" military break off to defend homeland or forsake it just to remain "unified" in another's?

Impractical. We may as well make a North American military consisting of Canadian, American, and Mexican citizens. Surely Canadians and Mexicans will follow the orders of a George Bush....right?

For a reference of how it would look...look towards NATO. Without America pulling and prodding, it would easily have fallen apart long ago. And when it came to Bosnia or Kosovo it took a lot of exhausting weeks to persuade just a few of the members to agree to the smallest tasks and mission assignments.
 
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I think that to make this work, there has to be less than 2 french soldiers per battalion. Otherwise.....
 
MSgt said:
Everyone else's military hails from a nation. They follow orders from a distinct single government. A European military will hail from many and remain loyal to parent commands before it does the bidding of a General (or politician) from another. And in those instances where Europe is divided over what to do for another ally, this "unified" military will prove pointless. Another consideration is over the defense of single nations. What if two nations are attacked? Will this "unified" military break off to defend homeland or forsake it just to remain "unified" in another's?

Impractical.
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Those serving in the European military would be loyal to the European Union. There would have to be one over-arching command, and the idea seems to be that it would be answerable to the European Parliament who would vote on deployments and such.

If two nations were attacked, it would simply be like if two US states were attacked, or two Canadian provinces. The European military would have to make strategic decisions.

You're making this more problematic than it necessarily would be. In fact this may go some ways to A. Giving more power to Parliament, and B. Increasing Europeans' sense of communal identity. Both of which are good things!
 
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AgentM said:
Those serving in the European military would be loyal to the European Union. There would have to be one over-arching command, and the idea seems to be that it would be answerable to the European Parliament who would vote on deployments and such.
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Highly impractical. There is no U.N. / NATO / or any other higher command that would hold my allegiance and loyalty in another nation if America was being attacked. You actually believe that 5,000 French troops would be expected to stay encamped under EU colors in Germany while France gets devistated?

This is an academic exercise at best.

AgentM said:
If two nations were attacked, it would simply be like if two US states were attacked, or two Canadian provinces. The European military would have to make strategic decisions.
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Actually, it would not be the same at all. Canadians are Canadians and Americans are Americans. The French aren't German and the Poles aren't Itailans. Until the nations of Europe surrender their flags and guidons so that they can be one nation....they are forever separate.

Let's not forget that the EU merely caulks over the cracks of Europe. It hardly unites them.

AgentM said:
You're making this more problematic than it necessarily would be. In fact this may go some ways to A. Giving more power to Parliament, and B. Increasing Europeans' sense of communal identity. Both of which are good things!
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More illusions. In the end, they are separate tribes and with every chance to prove it they do.
 
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MSgt said:
Highly impractical. There is no U.N. / NATO / or any other higher command that would hold my allegiance and loyalty in another nation if America was being attacked. You actually believe that 5,000 French troops would be expected to stay encamped under EU colors in Germany while France gets devistated?

This is an academic exercise at best.
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Well nobody is likely to attack the EU in the near future, so yes, it is an academic exercise to envision an assault. But a European military is not academic, it's being talked about seriously in the upper echelons of Europe. It's a real possibility.

Actually, it would not be the same at all. Canadians are Canadians and Americans are Americans. The French aren't German and the Poles aren't Itailans. Until the nations of Europe surrender their flags and guidons so that they can be one nation....they are forever separate.

Let's not forget that the EU merely caulks over the cracks of Europe. It hardly unites them.
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The troops would have to swear loyalty to Europe, and it's command, and be willing to deal with the consequences thereof. Not all Europeans are hardcore nationalists.

More illusions. In the end, they are separate tribes and with every chance to prove it they do.
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Yeah, except the whole thing of integrating themselves more and more. :roll:
 
AgentM said:
Well nobody is likely to attack the EU in the near future, so yes, it is an academic exercise to envision an assault. But a European military is not academic, it's being talked about seriously in the upper echelons of Europe. It's a real possibility.
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We'll never see it become anything other than a ceremonial display if that.


AgentM said:
Yeah, except the whole thing of integrating themselves more and more. :roll:
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Peace has a way of allowing people to entertain impractical things. When put to the test, their "integration" will crumble. They couldn't even come together over Bosnia and Kosovo. For Afghinstan they individually bicker over responsibility. And for Iraq they completely ran in different directions.

Who will be the Commander? A Frenchy? A German? A Turk? A former Soviet Bloc citizen? A Brit? Will they share command thereby placing nationality and culture under like commanders making them little more than what they are now? Will individual governments give up their citizens to EU laws over their own? It has nothing to do with being a "hardcore nationalist." It's about logistics and culture.

An EU military is unlikely and impractical. But it would be entertaining to see them try. Right now, they can't even individually move their troops internationally without American aid. Nor can they support themselves properly without American air support.
 
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MSgt said:
We'll never see it become anything other than a ceremonial display if that.




Peace has a way of allowing people to entertain impractical things. When put to the test, their "integration" will crumble. They couldn't even come together over Bosnia and Kosovo. For Afghinstan they individually bicker over responsibility. And for Iraq they completely ran in different directions.

Who will be the Commander? A Frenchy? A German? A Turk? A former Soviet Bloc citizen? A Brit? Will they share command thereby placing nationality and culture under like commanders making them little more than what they are now? Will individual governments give up their citizens to EU laws over their own? It has nothing to do with being a "hardcore nationalist." It's about logistics and culture.

An EU military is unlikely and impractical. But it would be entertaining to see them try. Right now, they can't even individually move their troops internationally without American aid. Nor can they support themselves properly without American air support.
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Well we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I think it can happen. We'll have to leave it at that, cause this discussion is going nowhere.
 
AgentM said:
Well we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I think it can happen. We'll have to leave it at that, cause this discussion is going nowhere.
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Yeah it's a pointless discussion. I don't even care what Europe does. If they can pull it off so that it finally frees America from the burden of always crossing the ocean, more power to them. I'd love to see them deal with their own dictators and genocides for a change.
 
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I think this is great, France's independant nuclear deterrent could then be shared by all of Europe:)
 
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Maximus Zeebra said:
So what do Americans thnk about this, how about Europeans, and how about others?

This is a work in progress since the Maastricht treaty. But I mean, "under full parliament control" :confused:

Germany has the biggest say in the parliament.
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If it happens then it would most likely be setup much like NATO.
 
American said:
To whom will their allegiance be?
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Western ideals?

Ideally a European military would operate ONLY to protect the citizens fundamental rights(as laid out in the "European charter of fundamental rights").
 
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