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Thread: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by chevydriver1123 View Post
    Good maybe when the Europissants start defending themselves we can finally bring our military personal back home.
    I'd love to see this. Of course we would just be setting ourselves up to having to cross the Atlantic Ocean when too much American blood has to be spilt to balance it out again. We tried to stay our of WWI, but in the end had to go and make a difference. We tried to stay our of their affairs dutring WWII, but in the end had to go make a difference. We tried to stay out of Bosnia and Kosovo, but in the end had to go do what they would not on their lone. America has learned its lessons. Whether they like it or not, they will be parented until they grow up.

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Using it? What is wrong with you?

    An army is for defense purposes, not for offensive purposes. (unless you want to join other empires like Napoleons, NAZI Germany, Imperial Japan and so fourth, whom did have armies for offensive purposes.)
    And this is why Europe's need for military aid thrived throughout an entire century. Why there even existed a Vichy France. You went from colonizing and brutalizing the world to slaughtering each other to thinking that a military is only for defense. If you build your military around the idea that they only have to hold the wall until upstarts across the ocean come to the rescue (just to be criticized for it anyway) then your military will always be exactly as I have described.

    An "army" should be effective which means it should be prepared and trained for offense as well as defense. History is full of failures who built their army's around the idea that holding a wall will suffice.


    The reason your kind think this is because Americans and Russians were your offense in two world wars while you were selling each other out. During the Cold War it was Americans that were your offensive muscle. During Bosnia it was Americans that continued to be the muscle and work horse. And today, 2010, nothing has changed except the Europan fantasy that "armies are for defense only." I believe Kuwait had a defensive military. It took outsiders to be the offense for them. Sound familiar?
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-14-10 at 05:18 PM.

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    How would this work with NATO? Or issues of national sovereignty and security? I know the EU has conducted military exercises but I don't see this happening, or if it does it won't form a military of any great significance. It'll probably be formed primarily for the purposes of international peacekeeping, which would be redundant with other international militaries. So again, I don't see this happening.

    I could see greater cooperation between EU members national militaries.

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I'd love to see this. Of course we would just be setting ourselves up to having to cross the Atlantic Ocean when too much American blood has to be spilt to balance it out again. We tried to stay our of WWI, but in the end had to go and make a difference. We tried to stay our of their affairs dutring WWII, but in the end had to go make a difference. We tried to stay out of Bosnia and Kosovo, but in the end had to go do what they would not on their lone. America has learned its lessons. Whether they like it or not, they will be parented until they grow up.
    You guys didn't do practically anything in WW1, you showed up at the very end. The Canadian Corps made more of a difference in WW1 than the Americans.
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    How would this work with NATO? Or issues of national sovereignty and security? I know the EU has conducted military exercises but I don't see this happening, or if it does it won't form a military of any great significance. It'll probably be formed primarily for the purposes of international peacekeeping, which would be redundant with other international militaries. So again, I don't see this happening.

    I could see greater cooperation between EU members national militaries.
    It would be purely ceremonial and centered around an ideal. A unified European military implies that individual governments would always be on the same page. And as tribal as Europeans are this is impossible. They scoff at our sense of nationalism (which has never reared such an ugly head as Europe has reared), but they have merely replaced their sense of nationalism with tribalism. They are divided on Afghanistan and they were divided on Iraq. They were divided on Bosnia and they were divided on Kosovo. They are divided on economic issues. They are divided in loyalties to allies. They have a history of screwing each other over and selling out. I guess history is supposed to teach us that Europe is "unified?" The first opportunity they have they will be true to their history.

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
    You guys didn't do practically anything in WW1, you showed up at the very end. The Canadian Corps made more of a difference in WW1 than the Americans.
    Perhaps you should read up on Belleau Wood and Chateau-Thierry. It was the Marine Corps and some American soldiers that finally stopped Ludendorf's advance to Paris and finally turned the war around. It was here where Ludendorf had to halt and re-direct his focus. For two days, German soldiers were being picked off and denied advance. It took them two days before they found the body of a dead American to realize that American Marines were fighting in this location and papers throughout Europe (to include Germany) recognized it. And it was at this point in the war where the allies finally pushed back to win.

    After years of stalemate even Ludendorf knew that he had to push before the Americans got involved to tip the balance. He was right. Canadians were just like the rest. They were beaten down and advancing backwards before Americans showed up.

    This 27 day battle was of such significance that it is memorialized to this day in France. Had we not showed up, Europe was facing a Vicky, Normany situation (like World War II). So whatever everyone's input, this cannot be denied unless you are unaware of the event.


    But we didn't have to show up at all. Like World War II, Europe's civil war was Europe's business. We've had business deals with dictators and brutes before without having to go to war with them or agreeing to their behaviors. Germany would have been no different and it would have saved American lives.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-14-10 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    I think you're overstating America's role in Europe's affairs. America did not single handily win WW1 or WW2 or "clean up" the Yugoslavian wars follow that country's break up. But I agree with your assessment of problems with an EU military, giving up some sovereignty in economic affairs is one thing especially if it benefits everyone involved. But no nation is going to give up its military entirely, thats a step too far, so an EU army will have to complement national militaries and never be stronger than them. Also it's use will have to be decided by probably 100% agreement between each EU member

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Perhaps you should read up on Belleau Wood and Chateau-Thierry. It was the Marine Corps and some American soldiers that finally stopped Ludendorf's advance to Paris and finally turned the war around. It was here where Ludendorf had to halt and re-direct his focus. For two days, German soldiers were being picked off and denied advance. It took them two days before they found the body of a dead American to realize that American Marines were fighting in this location and papers throughout Europe (to include Germany) recognized it. And it was at this point in the war where the allies finally pushed back to win.

    After years of stalemate even Ludendorf knew that he had to push before the Americans got involved to tip the balance. He was right. Canadians were just like the rest. They were beaten down and advancing backwards before Americans showed up.

    This 27 day battle was of such significance that it is memorialized to this day in France. Had we not showed up, Europe was facing a Vicky, Normany situation (like World War II). So whatever everyone's input, this cannot be denied unless you are unaware of the event.


    But we didn't have to show up at all. Like World War II, Europe's civil war was Europe's business. We've had business deals with dictators and brutes before without having to go to war with them or agreeing to their behaviors. Germany would have been no different and it would have saved American lives.
    I'll grant that American participation was more important than I had thought. However, as Wiseone said, you never single handedly won either of the world wars (despite all the bravado chest thumping you give yourselves), and even if the Spring Offensive had succeeded, it's doubtful that Germany would have been able to hang on to all of that territory for long.
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I think you're overstating America's role in Europe's affairs. America did not single handily win WW1 or WW2 or "clean up" the Yugoslavian wars follow that country's break up.
    I'm not overstating anything. What is common these days is for people (Europeans and our own ignorant Americans) to understate American contribution and result. I didn't state it single handedly did anything.

    What I did state was that it was the Battle of Belleau Wood that turned the tide and prevented the Allies from losing WWI and it was the American fist at Normany and Italy in the west that worked hand in hand with the Russian fist in the east. Allied with Britain in the struggle against Nazi Germany while also conducting naval warfare against Japan in the etire Pacific? It participated with Britain in ousting German forces from North Africa, invaded Germany's ally, Italy, and opened the Second Front at with Normandy. It was also American diplmacy and muscle that pushed Europe into dealing with "Yugolsvaia" in the 90s. It was Clinton that kicked the UN out of Bosnia and it was American commanders that positioned European forces as they bickered ad bickered. It was also Clinton that forced the French to take part in the bombings of Kosovo. In both "Yugoslavia" wars America flew the vast percentage of all sorties. Who's region was this? 50 years after WWII and we still had to bear the brunt of the effort in the European theater?

    But for the ultimate "**** you" to those who wish to downplay America's contribution and matter when it came to these things......there were far more Americans killed in Europe than Frenchmen.


    229,000 American soldiers died in Europe.
    217,000 French soldiers died in Europe.


    Wasn't it their country that needed liberated? Pretty sacrificial of us for it not being our own land. Perhaps if we erase those American deaths and kept them at home Russia would have crossed through Paris eventually. Out with the Nazis...in with the Soviets. Europe would have still been screwed.

    But what I find pathetic is how we are criticized for coming late to thewir party. Little regard is given the fact that we didn't have to come at all. Little regard is given to the fact that the rest of the 413,000 dead Americans soldierts were already fighting the Japanese in the Pacific for years in what was our own problem. Today, we get the Zeebras (representative of exactly what I detest about Europe) that or contribution was minor as if the French liberated themselves or that Russia was just around the corner and surely would have left afterwards (like they did with Poland, Iran, and Turkey). Little regard to how much America has sacrificed so that they could spend decades licking their wounds while we focused on regional stability throughout their colonial vacuumes (leaving us to take all their blame in the future).

    I don't overstae anything. I know my military history and I know the mess Europe's created over the centuries. This is why I will not let someone like Zeebra spew his venom and falsehoods uncontested. This is why I bring up the French torture machine in Algeria, which saw to hundreds of thousands of people publicly and truly tortured as a matter of policy, whenever he and other Europeans portray America as the ultimate evil for a handful of waterboarding occurrences. This is why I bring up the global carnage, which was the result of their instigated World Wars, every time they wish to portray America as the ultimate evil for taking out Hussein and freeing Muslims to kill each other in Iraq.

    No matter what the stumble or error for which America constantly corrects and moves forward, we will never be Europeans. No matter how hard they wish to exact every little thing America does to the disasters of European invention and ingenuity we will never be their equals in a department they all but monopolize. This new attitude of "holier-than-thou" will last until they have to re-discover who they are.

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    I think even your overstating the American importance to halting the Spring offensive. If American units were not there than obviously that part of the line would have been manned by other allied formations, now what units would have been there and how well they would have done is total and complete speculation. And as to how that fact would have changed the offensive as a whole, since other parts of the line would have been weaker to cover that part where the Americans would have been, is also total speculation.

    But I doubt that offensive would have ended the war for Germany either way, it was a LONG way to Paris when that offensive ended. If the American units were fresher and thus were able to stop them sooner than European units could have, which is arguable, there was still a lot of territory to cover and advance through.

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