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Thread: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
    Sounds like a good idea to me. It would be a very tough job though, just with the language issues alone!
    The French foreign legion have resolved that already.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Peace has a way of allowing people to entertain impractical things. When put to the test, their "integration" will crumble. They couldn't even come together over Bosnia and Kosovo. For Afghinstan they individually bicker over responsibility. And for Iraq they completely ran in different directions.

    Who will be the Commander? A Frenchy? A German? A Turk? A former Soviet Bloc citizen? A Brit? Will they share command thereby placing nationality and culture under like commanders making them little more than what they are now? Will individual governments give up their citizens to EU laws over their own? It has nothing to do with being a "hardcore nationalist." It's about logistics and culture.

    An EU military is unlikely and impractical. But it would be entertaining to see them try. Right now, they can't even individually move their troops internationally without American aid. Nor can they support themselves properly without American air support.
    1. Bosnia and Kosovo has never been a member of the EU.
    2. We dont have a common defense yet, so we dont have to agree on Afganistan.
    3. Same as 2, yet now our voice is more united than it was before Iraq. I doubt the same would happen again, and if it did, it wouldnt matter more than it did with Iraq, where it mattered non at all, except to the US who whine over the French and the Germans not coming along in their illegal war.
    4. Many commanders. Europe already have a command structure, and the command is shared just like political responsibility in the EU.
    5. A future European military would probably have to swear allegiance to "western values" first and then nationality. The European military will remain two-tier, it will for a long time remain national where the nations pool their military resources in a far more effective way to MAKE UP the European military. Europe is not like the US, and you using the US as the starting point for understanding European politics and a European military is completely invalid.
    6. Its a complete lie that you say European militaries cant do this and that. Its a delusion. They can, and they are doing. But the difference a united military effort will make is that the European military will be reformed to being a more multi functional force rather than a stand by defense force mostly, like most of the currently are.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  3. #53
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    1. Bosnia and Kosovo has never been a member of the EU.
    And Haiti's not a member of the U.S., yet America does what it must to safe guard it region. 75 years after World War I and 50 years after World War II Europeans had a hard time figuring out if genocide and military aggression is a bad thing in Europe? Maybe thinking more about right and wrong instead of whether or not it is supposed to be your problem would have saved some lives throughout the twentieth century on the European landscape. Would this be the reason Europe's sense of morality is so depraved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    2. We dont have a common defense yet, so we dont have to agree on Afganistan.
    Your common defense is America. And if you can't agree on a black and white issue like Bosnia or Afghanistan what makes you think this "common defense" will (Wasn't NATO supposed to be about a common defense?) But what is it that Europe needs to defend against anymore anyway? I doubt you are going to slaughter each other anymore. The only real future threat is civil, but your kind still refuse to acknowledge what is ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    3. Same as 2, yet now our voice is more united than it was before Iraq. I doubt the same would happen again, and if it did, it wouldnt matter more than it did with Iraq, where it mattered non at all, except to the US who whine over the French and the Germans not coming along in their illegal war.
    Well, America's "illegal" war involved getting rid of a Western dictator and a corrupt European UN mission and was the start of dealing with a wrecked region of terror breeding. Europe's "illegal" wars sucked the the world in more than once and involved the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. Maybe Europeans should place a few things into perspectives instead of rushing to define America as the evil upon the earth. No one's caused or instigated more death upon this earth than Europeans.

    But, calling America's activity with Iraq as "illegal" helps Europeans feel better doesn't it? Next thing you'll be calling us Nazis...oops...too late.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    4. Many commanders. Europe already have a command structure, and the command is shared just like political responsibility in the EU.
    So...no commander, but a committee? Is this supposed to be a military or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post

    5. A future European military would probably have to swear allegiance to "western values" first and then nationality. The European military will remain two-tier, it will for a long time remain national where the nations pool their military resources in a far more effective way to MAKE UP the European military. Europe is not like the US, and you using the US as the starting point for understanding European politics and a European military is completely invalid.
    European politics is represented with two World Wars, a Cold War, and a neglected Bosnia. What is being suggested from Europe is nothing more than a ceremonial entity. It's a NATO without the power across the sea (and channel).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post

    6. Its a complete lie that you say European militaries cant do this and that. Its a delusion. They can, and they are doing. But the difference a united military effort will make is that the European military will be reformed to being a more multi functional force rather than a stand by defense force mostly, like most of the currently are.
    Lie? We have an entire twentieth century full of examples of what European militaries can and can't do. I have trained with European militaries. They were uselsess in the Gulf War. They were a disaster in Somalia. They stood by under UN helmets and watched genocide in Bosnia before Clinton kicked out the UN and they had to be commanded around by American generals just to get them into somewhat usable positions. Their actual combat roles have been largely ineffective in Afghanistan, which is why British and American forces are always the leaders and always the more active. European militaries have the inability to fight effectively with combined arms, because they lack the combined arms. American air transport is still necessary to move European forces around. American air support is still being taken away from American ground troops because European ground troops haven't the support of their own.

    The only thing a united European force will be is a much larger burden to Americans. At least you are manageable in small units.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-13-10 at 03:57 PM.

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  4. #54
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    No, not really, they are only free to do what member states agree on. The EU is not a state in itself like the US.

    Anyways.. I mean, American perspective on this would be interesting. Would you see it as helpful, dangerous, detrimental or what exactly?
    I don't think it matters one whit. An army is only useful....if you use it. Europe is so completely pacificist I can't see them creating a useful army much less using it.
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I don't think it matters one whit. An army is only useful....if you use it.
    Wow. You been reading the neocon playbook Dutch? You realize an army can be very useful without ever firing a shot right? For an example I refer you to the US military during the Cold War.
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And Haiti's not a member of the U.S., yet America does what it must to safe guard it region. 75 years after World War I and 50 years after World War II Europeans had a hard time figuring out if genocide and military aggression is a bad thing in Europe? Maybe thinking more about right and wrong instead of whether or not it is supposed to be your problem would have saved some lives throughout the twentieth century on the European landscape. Would this be the reason Europe's sense of morality is so depraved?
    You acted as the EU had some kind of responsibility to help in the Balkans, we did not. Yet, we did.

    Your problem is that you cant get over the second world war.. Today is 2010 by the way. Perhaps I should start mentioning the American civil war, and how France saved America, in every discussion where it is relevant, and even more when it isnt relevant. Just to answer you people.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Your common defense is America. And if you can't agree on a black and white issue like Bosnia or Afghanistan what makes you think this "common defense" will (Wasn't NATO supposed to be about a common defense?) But what is it that Europe needs to defend against anymore anyway? I doubt you are going to slaughter each other anymore. The only real future threat is civil, but your kind still refuse to acknowledge what is ahead.
    Nothing is black and white. Those examples certainly arent.

    European common defense is not America. We have national defense first, we spend 200 billion on national defense, between all the EU members. On top of that, we have had the NATO alliance for many decades. And a few decades ago, we started building what is the beginning of a common defense for Europe, which have progressed and developed ever since.


    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, America's "illegal" war involved getting rid of a Western dictator
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    and a corrupt European UN mission and was the start of dealing with a wrecked region of terror breeding.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Europe's "illegal" wars sucked the the world in more than once and involved the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. Maybe Europeans should place a few things into perspectives instead of rushing to define America as the evil upon the earth. No one's caused or instigated more death upon this earth than Europeans.
    Perhaps its time Americans get over world war 2 already. Or perhaps they cannot, considering its their only great and good achievement ever, the only time they did the right thing, for someone else than themselves.

    Also, perhaps its time Americans learn by the second world war, rather than from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But, calling America's activity with Iraq as "illegal" helps Europeans feel better doesn't it? Next thing you'll be calling us Nazis...oops...too late.
    Doesnt make us feel better, it just makes us the only ones who care about international law and preventing another NAZI Germany like country from commiting the same mistakes again.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    So...no commander, but a committee? Is this supposed to be a military or not?
    The American fetishm with elected dictators and single people in power is well known. Europe is not taking this road anymore, nobody wants a president to rule a whole country or a single commander to rule much of the armed forces.


    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    European politics is represented with two World Wars, a Cold War, and a neglected Bosnia. What is being suggested from Europe is nothing more than a ceremonial entity. It's a NATO without the power across the sea (and channel).
    Clearly you still live in 1950. Perhaps I could update you into 2010, would you like some education?
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I don't think it matters one whit. An army is only useful....if you use it. Europe is so completely pacificist I can't see them creating a useful army much less using it.
    Using it? What is wrong with you?

    An army is for defense purposes, not for offensive purposes. (unless you want to join other empires like Napoleons, NAZI Germany, Imperial Japan and so fourth, whom did have armies for offensive purposes.)
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Good maybe when the Europissants start defending themselves we can finally bring our military personal back home.
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    Wow. You been reading the neocon playbook Dutch? You realize an army can be very useful without ever firing a shot right? For an example I refer you to the US military during the Cold War.


    The U.S. military fired shots all over the globe during the Cold War.

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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    You acted as the EU had some kind of responsibility to help in the Balkans, we did not. Yet, we did.
    Only after American boots crossed the ocean, once again, and forced you. Until America's involvement, European powers were quite content deliberating over it passing judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Your problem is that you cant get over the second world war.. Today is 2010 by the way. Perhaps I should start mentioning the American civil war, and how France saved America, in every discussion where it is relevant, and even more when it isnt relevant. Just to answer you people.
    Second World War? What about the Cold War? When the Berlin Wall came down an American presence was still in Germany. Bosnia and Kosovo was in the 90s. Today is 2010. What has changed?


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    European common defense is not America. We have national defense first, we spend 200 billion € on national defense, between all the EU members.
    Well that's very nice, but a National Guard hiding behind an advanced American machine is hardly something to parade around. Until you can completely defend yourselves, your common defense is the American/British shield and umbrella. Both of which I want back across the ocean for a few decades so that same old lessons can be learned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    What?
    What do you mean "what?" Saddam Hussein was a dictator for the West during the Iran/Iraq War. His greatest supplier of weapons came from France. During the 90's he was allowed his throne and his station of oppression because the West wished it so. He was a "western" dictator. The Cold War has more examples. The New Imperialsim era has a plethora of these from Europe alone. The colonial period celebrated this concept of population control. Hussein was one of the last hold outs and he held out because we assured it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Perhaps its time Americans get over world war 2 already.
    It would be eay if there weren't a World War before that one. Or a Cold War after....Bosnia after....Kosovo after.... Hell, a big part of Clinton's foriegn policy agenda in Europe was ensuring a stable Russia and partnership so that Europe no longer had to be our burden. We are merely waiting for the next trip across the ocean for Europe's sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Or perhaps they cannot, considering its their only great and good achievement ever, the only time they did the right thing, for someone else than themselves.
    I'm pretty sure that even most of Europe would chastize you greatly for this bout of glorified ignorance. Perhaps you have America confused with a mirror.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Also, perhaps its time Americans learn by the second world war, rather than from it.
    Oh we did learn. After two world Wars instigated by Europeans, we learned that left to your own devices the world couldn't be safe and that it would cost American lives in the end. This is why we stuck around for the Cold War and why we have tried to make you play nice with each other since the Berlin Wall came down. With America's youth, you would think that Europe would be more parental instead of childish in your resentments towards the upstarts across the Atlantic.

    But perhaps it is Europe that has finally learned the lesson. This attempt to create a "unified" military may be exactly what you have to do in order to ensure your own defense for a change so that America can focus more on our own issues. If only we had a Cold War to primarily look inward at someone else's expense. But we aren't so bad. Due to our culture, we don't have any where near the immigrant and terror issues you have even after your Cold War dedicated focus inward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    ....it just makes us the only ones who care about international law.....
    Because it absolves you of responsibility and gives you an excuse to turn away. Did you know that the UN labeled Kosovo as "illegal?" Even the high and mighty French chose to ignore this bit of international law. Hmmm...the hypocracy of Europeans is only surpassed by the Arabs in the Middle East.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    The American fetishm with elected dictators and single people in power is well known. Europe is not taking this road anymore, nobody wants a president to rule a whole country or a single commander to rule much of the armed forces.
    A dictator in America? Do even think before you type or is emotion such a strong thing for you that you can't contain your absurdity? Every military needs a commander and every country needs a leader. And in 50 years, the nations of Europe will continue to have single leaders. What people "want" and what is practical are often two different things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Clearly you still live in 1950. Perhaps I could update you into 2010, would you like some education?
    The Cold War lasted until 1989 and Bosnia and Kosovo was in the 1990s. I'm pretty sure these dates mean that it was not the 1950s. But please....eduate me as to the latest scheme or dream Europeans have to re-model themsleves. In the end, you are a cycle. Your pacifist "nothing bad can happen" attitudes today existed post World War I and pre-World War II. You spent a Cold War doing nothing but benefitting under the "nothing bad can happen" attitude and the 90's griping that there is a reality outside your borders for which you have to take part in for a change. Please enlighten me of Europe's latest "new" attitude.

    Left to Europe, the world would be denied until we can label something World War III.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-14-10 at 05:09 PM.

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