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Thread: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

  1. #121
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    Are you somehow suggesting that itís not Tibetans but in fact the western media who reject the Chinese colonisation of Tibet?
    Colonization? You mean like US "colonization" of Hawaii and the souther states?
    Or even worse, perhaps you mean like Spanish "colonization" of the Basque region?

    The fact is that Tibet has been part of China for a long time, longer than the US have existed, and have recently had their attempts at BREAKING away from China, just like Basque has tried in Spain. Both are rebel populations in a region where the majority doesnt necessarily support indpendence, and where such is historically incorrect.

    Like I said also, personally I support greater regionalism in Europe, but China is nowhere near Europe in such a maturity that it can even think about such things. But heck, then again, I support Californian independence or indepenence of many regions both in Europe and the US. Not exactly mainstream like all the wrong bickering about Tibet, just because western politics through media brainwashing is trying to wage war against a China they fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    In regard to Tiannamen Square, where could a government kill and maim a couple of thousand students and remain in power. Surely not in a democracy. When you say ďnecessary evils", I think ďAnimal FarmĒ.
    So what? A "western" democracy in China will not work, and let everyone with a bit of sanity hope forever that western style democracy is avoided in China.

    Lets instead hope that China keep moving in the direction they do, and keep their 1 party, and keep making it less authorative, and keep giving the people more and more influence over political decisions. Thats democracy, what we have in the west will then be considered very poor democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    Iím sorry , I assumed you knew about Maoís cultural revolution. Which brings me to the following. Which western ideals are you talking about?
    But I do... I didnt know this was what you referred to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    Chinaís engaged in mind control and you support it. 30 years from now youíll wake up in front of a teleprompter with a chip in your arse.
    Isnt this what is going on in the US actually?
    President reads from a teleprompter and people are being chipped and tracked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    BTW, the West isnít nagging, theyíre sucking up to China becuase they want acces to their markets and exploit their proletariat.
    China has moved to far away from communist ideas in my opinion. They should re-embrace equality and a society that works for EVERYONE instead of the individuals first, then everyone second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    We used to know what the alternative means. I donít mind criticism on democracy but as long as you donít provide an alternative you leave it to my imagination.
    So, can you not imagine something better than a sham democracy?


    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    Hell yes!
    So you contest the idea that hundreds of millions of Chinese people have been lifted out of poverty the last 20 years?

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    Sure Iíll buy it, maybe then Iíll appreciate the concept of the deliberative dictatorship more.
    Well, if you read it, you will understand that democracy of the future is not about electing one of the big parties with a political menu that you may know 5% of or may know 10% of, and where 50% of policies will go through no matter what you vote. This is oppose to a system with one party, where people get to decide where policies move, and dont care about who politicians have sex with or which party is best at throwing one liners on TV.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  2. #122
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Unfortunately, a one party system in Germany proved your sentiment foolish. Of course, there's always the possibilty that the Nazi Party was merely misunderstood.
    Yeah? So NAZI Germany one party system is the only one party system you can imagine in your creative and open mind?
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  3. #123
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    No it wouldn't.
    Who would it be answerable to? Who would control it? How can you ensure it is 'controlled' fairly?
    I refuse to accept German-only leadership or French only. Will small countries have as much control of said defense as UK?
    I am pretty sure it will be a dual system, where any use of the COMMON European defense will have to be unanimous, whereas any military action taken by several or individual states will need some kind of majority approval. But heck, there are many possibilities, those are the ones I find most likely.

    A system where Germany or France or any one nation controls the defense will not happen, DEFINETELY. I do believe however that a French German cooperation in that area would carry a lot of weight just like it does in shaping policies in the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    So another useless project? Noted.
    Whats useless about having a DEFENSE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    British soldiers pledge their allegiance to Her Majesty, the Queen. Not some bloody charter.
    Ahh, exactly. Thats where you come from, you think its better and more sane that a military pledge alliance with a single person rather than common values?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    It has been for hundreds of years and it will remain.
    So has human-animal intercourse. Lets hope that doesnt continue either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Europe is really pushing it. Lets just abolish all national pride and history and restart it all over again :/
    Hell yeah! But lets not start over again around such values, lets start over again and create a new society based around common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    And people wonder why the British fear closer integration if it is this kind of stuff they dream up.
    I do wonder...
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  4. #124
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Hmmmm...weren't you celebrating the greatness of Barrack Obama as reaching out to Europe just a few months ago while people like me were ruining it?
    Nope. Didnt do that. I actually only liked Obama in the beginning of his campaign, and started predicting NO CHANGE in the US long before he took office.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Yet here you are talking about America's "current trend" of looking to be a more closed society.
    Its not "looking to be a more closed" society. It has become a closed society, certainly not by intention(I HOPE), but by pursuing the wrong direction.
    Compare the US in the 90s with the US now.. Compare the US now, with the US of the past.. It is a closed and dogmatic society with polarization the only value left. (unfortunately). A breeding ground for extremism.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Wasn't it your kind that bestowed the Nobel Peace Prize upon our magnificent Washingtoin king?
    No one in Europe supported that. It was a nobel committee who did that, for what reason no one knows. Perhaps as a celebration that he isnt Bush, and he deserves one just for "not being republican".
    I dont know why he got it, no European I have talked to knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Perhaps your fears of a "closed" American society has you worried about having to work harder to eran a seat at America's table in the future
    Nah, I dont care about all that. I just think its a great shame that America has gone from being the most open society in the world, to being a closed dogmatic society with extremism, ignorance and polarization as the driving forces.
    It makes me sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    By the way, I wonder how you feel about your earlier preaching about how America's economy was finished. Seems we are bouncing just fine as predicted (which is the American way) while you all are being as European as always. Turn your back on us. Embrace Russia and Soviet Union. I mean you owe everything to them over the last 100 years don't you? Thoughts?
    If you understood economics, you would understand that the American economy is in crisis and that the fundamental parts of the economy have declined enourmously, like me for example predicted years ago. The fascist/socialist program, and the military expansion has helped none on the economy, and the real pain will come when the effect of those program starts peeling off again..

    I think Europe are embracing Russia more and more since the break up of the Soviet Union, and for good reason, it was one of the most closed societies in the world, and is moving more and more in a positive direction towards and open society.
    Thats reason enough to reward them for sure.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

  5. #125
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Yeah? So NAZI Germany one party system is the only one party system you can imagine in your creative and open mind?
    ...We're talking about Europe's creativity right? Europe has a history of "one party systems." You're love affair for dictators is legendary. But hey, what could go wrong with a European one party system with a military to back it up?

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  6. #126
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    A breeding ground for extremism.
    You just don't seemn to get how different we are from you. Extremism comes from oppression or from bad treatment. Ours is an accepting diverse culture. Extremism is a European problem. But a degree of closed society that keeps Europe at an arms distance is exactly what we need. You people have taken advantage of enough American blood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Nah, I dont care about all that.
    Your governments sure do. All the groveling since Obama took office has been sickening. And it was all topped off with a Nobel Peace Prize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I just think its a great shame that America has gone from being the most open society in the world, to being a closed dogmatic society with extremism, ignorance and polarization as the driving forces.
    We are still the most open society on earth. Immigration continues to be targetted to the U.S. Our programs of acceptance contunues to be funded. What has differed is our trust in the world and our allies. This is a result of the world's inability to deal with their own problems. Your statement is ignorant and petty.

    I'm curious. How old are you anyway? We've been bitching back and forth for so long maybe I should know you a little better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    If you understood economics, you would understand that the American economy is in crisis and that the fundamental parts of the economy have declined enourmously, like me for example predicted years ago.
    The American economy is no where near the crisis it was a year ago. And it has been in economic crisis before. You predicted ultimate failure and doom like an anti-American leftist would. America's economy is bouncing and growing again. Europe's economy is more of a wreck than usual. Your great EU can't get any of your countries to work together at all. And when America is re-charged, re-shaped, and stronger (which is what we do historically when we stumble) Europe will still be whining about how others are responsible for lifting them up because they can't do for themselves. But if Russia is your future, pull all your securities from America and focus them towards Moscow. Or do we know better than this behind closed doors?

    But take heart. At least when America stumbles it doesn't drag the world into global wars. Just through association you will be pampered back to health.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    I think Europe are embracing Russia more and more since the break up of the Soviet Union, and for good reason, it was one of the most closed societies in the world, and is moving more and more in a positive direction towards and open society.
    Thats reason enough to reward them for sure.
    Thank Washington. We were talking with the Soviets long before Western Europeans sought bed mates. And it was Clinton's foriegn policy after the Cold War that made this possible. He knew that our security relied upon a stronger Western and Eastern Europe. After all, two World Wars and a Cold war started there.

    And by the way....Russia cannot be trusted. There is the Western world and there is the rest. As long as Russia embraces Iran, you are groveling with the enemy.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-27-10 at 03:26 PM.

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  7. #127
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Colonization? You mean like US "colonization" of Hawaii and the souther states?
    Or even worse, perhaps you mean like Spanish "colonization" of the Basque region?
    This was in response to my question:
    Are you somehow suggesting that it’s not Tibetans but in fact the western media who reject the Chinese colonisation of Tibet?
    You have not answered my question.

    The fact is that Tibet has been part of China for a long time, longer than the US have existed, and have recently had their attempts at BREAKING away from China, just like Basque has tried in Spain. Both are rebel populations in a region where the majority doesnt necessarily support indpendence, and where such is historically incorrect.
    On what do you base the assertion that “the majority doesnt necessarily support independence”?
    Do you support the right to self determination?

    Like I said also, personally I support greater regionalism in Europe, but China is nowhere near Europe in such a maturity that it can even think about such things. But heck, then again, I support Californian independence or indepenence of many regions both in Europe and the US. Not exactly mainstream like all the wrong bickering about Tibet, just because western politics through media brainwashing is trying to wage war against a China they fear.
    So the western media is trying to wage war with China. ROFLMAO!
    I would say you're a fool but I’m still responding to this horse manure. I guess I’m the idiot.

    So what? A "western" democracy in China will not work, and let everyone with a bit of sanity hope forever that western style democracy is avoided in China.
    Because you say so? Tell me, if there’s a “western” democracy, what are the other types of democracies?

    Lets instead hope that China keep moving in the direction they do, and keep their 1 party, and keep making it less authorative, and keep giving the people more and more influence over political decisions. Thats democracy, what we have in the west will then be considered very poor democracy.
    Untill that day you might consider to keep these clairvoyant dreams silent.

    But I do... I didnt know this was what you referred to.
    Yet you accused me of not understanding Chinese history, funny that.

    Isnt this what is going on in the US actually?
    President reads from a teleprompter and people are being chipped and tracked.
    I don’t know, I don’t live in the US.
    China has moved to far away from communist ideas in my opinion. They should re-embrace equality and a society that works for EVERYONE instead of the individuals first, then everyone second.

    So, can you not imagine something better than a sham democracy?
    Yes; a democracy.


    So you contest the idea that hundreds of millions of Chinese people have been lifted out of poverty the last 20 years?
    Oh brother, we we’re talking about the EU. Here you go:

    post#102

    The European Union commission has no parties, they just propose the policies they see as the best way forward, and the people of the commission varies all the time. Thats a pretty good example, but its not a government, just a good type of political indstitution.
    Post#106 me
    Can you name me a few of their achievements? What's so appealing?
    Post#111
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Bringing more than the equivilant of the full population of the US out of poverty into relative comfortable lives.
    Last edited by Djoop; 02-27-10 at 11:05 PM.

  8. #128
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    Re: Germany speaks out in favour of European army

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You just don't seemn to get how different we are from you.
    I do, Americans have embraced extremism after 911, America has gone from an open to a closed society in the same period. Europe on the other hand, as a region is by far the most open society of todays world. There is little extremism in Europe. American is like rich and poor, Europe is overall balanced more in the rational middle, so it goes for opinions. Americans are balancing on the most extremes, just like terrorists, criminals and other insane people.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Your governments sure do. All the groveling since Obama took office has been sickening. And it was all topped off with a Nobel Peace Prize.
    Thats ridiculous. Of course European governments were happy with anyone who follows a fascist like George W Bush as president of the United States. And those expectations were far too high on average yes, but the mood has cooled down now. I dont know any European leaders who have grand faith in Obama anymore, in changing the direction of the US and once again making it an open society not based around military extremism and pretend democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    We are still the most open society on earth.
    No way. You don't know what an open society is.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Immigration continues to be targetted to the U.S.
    Really? Is that the reality you believe in?
    Europe receive just as many immigrants as the US, actually more according to statistics, but per person, its about the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Our programs of acceptance contunues to be funded.
    Like which programs? The ones that keeps latinoes and blacks seperate from the rest of the population in the US? The programs that assures these people are never integrated with the rest in a proper way? Those acceptance programs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    What has differed is our trust in the world and our allies.
    What country trusts the US now? What country looks to the US for leadership anymore?
    None... Ask the same in the 90s and the answer would be different.

    There is a reason for this change. Its easy for the US to use "trust issues" with allies to wage global unrestricted war.. Like NAZI Germany did or imperial Japan, or fascist Italy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This is a result of the world's inability to deal with their own problems.
    LIKE WHAT? Spending all time being afraid of terrorist and delusionally thinking terrorism is the only problem with in the world. Wow, dude, I actually feel anger towards your attitude now.

    There isnt any problems, the only problems we have in the world is because of bad distribution and lack of education, the rest of the problems are a result of those problems. Waging war is NOT going to solve anything, if you think that you can just ask the Generals of NAZI Germany how far they got with that type of attitude.

    Your attitude shocks me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Your statement is ignorant and petty.
    So who is petty and ignorant? The man who use that as "a way of arguing" or the guy he is arguing with?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I'm curious. How old are you anyway? We've been bitching back and forth for so long maybe I should know you a little better.
    Does that matter? How old are you? I do believe I am around half your age if I am not totally mistaken(about your age).

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The American economy is no where near the crisis it was a year ago.
    Then you dont understand economy. You cant treat internal bleeding with drugs and assume everything is okay, just because it feels better.

    The American economy is worse of at this day and age than it ever has been, including before and during the financial crisis. Actually, I am not going to blame only the American economy, for something that is clearly a problem with the whole economic model of capitalism(as I have stated before many times).. But seeing Americans have embraced the most extreme of capitalism, I do blame them a lot for a structurally faulty economy. European capitalist-socialism is faring a lot better.

    None of those models are a solutions even so, capitalism is dead. Its just a question about us trying to resist a collapse and falling harder and worse, or us embracing the change we need.
    The American military solution and resorting to militarism is NOT the solution, as NAZI Germany have showed us before.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And it has been in economic crisis before. You predicted ultimate failure and doom like an anti-American leftist would.
    But I still do, the reason for that is because Americans(and Europeans) are unwilling to embrace hard and necessary change. If we fail to do that the collapse will be utterly painful.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    America's economy is bouncing and growing again. Europe's economy is more of a wreck than usual.
    But I can say the same, the European economy is also technically growing just like the American one, but in reality we are still both in economical decline. If you dont realize that its because you refuse to understand BASIC economic factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Your great EU can't get any of your countries to work together at all.
    Really? Last time I checked we increased from 15 nations to 25 nations to 27 nations, which is the current amount of countries who are working together. and yes, therefor it is great.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And when America is re-charged, re-shaped, and stronger (which is what we do historically when we stumble)
    Really? Is that so? The only place America is getting stronger is militarily. All the rest is weakening and collapsing. Now that is the SCARY fact.
    If that is your definition of how America gets stronger, then sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Europe will still be whining about how others are responsible for lifting them up because they can't do for themselves.
    Really? Did the American fascists teach you this so that you dont have to listen to European sanity anymore, rather just American politicians extremism. NAZI Germany also isolated their people in this way, did you know that?

    Also all throughout history European countries have alse "re-charged, re-shaped, and stronger (which is what we do historically when we stumble)"...

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But if Russia is your future, pull all your securities from America and focus them towards Moscow. Or do we know better than this behind closed doors?
    The future is global... Not nationalist fascism.. Anyone who has an open society should be embraced, everyone who doesnt should be encouraged to change, including America. We are encouraging Russia to change all the time, and they are, very positively so. Now we have to focus energy on America, the Middle east, and many African countries. Even most of Asia is opening up and becoming open free societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But take heart. At least when America stumbles it doesn't drag the world into global wars. Just through association you will be pampered back to health.
    But that is the direction it is taking, but is blind to see it because its frozen by fear which is exhaggerated by extremism. The US anno 2001-current is pursuing a similar path to that of NAZI Germany. I am not saying things are in identical order, but the same things are happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And by the way....Russia cannot be trusted. There is the Western world and there is the rest. As long as Russia embraces Iran, you are groveling with the enemy.
    Perpahs Iran is only the enemy because you make them so. Perhaps if you encouraged them to change rather than scare them, they would open up.

    The European way of encouragement is far greater than the American scare tactic. Europe has been leading the world into peaceful ways since the fall of the Soviet Empire. The US has contributed nothing positive since, but has rather followed a path of trying to dictate everyone else, to interfere with others business and to embrace militarism, force, aggression and such things. The world doesnt need that.
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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