Top uniformed officer: Gay ban should be lifted

CrusaderRabbit08 said:

And when it happens, you round up the trouble makers (ie; those anti-gay bigots), give 'em all DD's and kick their sorry asses out of the service. Problem solved.

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While I don't think this would happen but what if a large percent of our combat arms troops become trouble makers. Should we just kick them out at the cost of making those units nondeployable. Look I am all for getting rid of DADT just not while we have two rather man power intensive wars going on. Now if they want to do it the day after we sart making major draw downs from both theaters than fine. But all that still has nothing ti do with the fact that generals have very little ideas about what your average infantry squad member is thinking. That is just the way it is. To pretend otherwise shows you have absolutly no idea how the military works.

Navy Pride said:

Thank God its a long time before we make that decision..Maybe we will have another president who realizes what a stupid idea that is..........One thing for sure your a long way from having the 60 votes needed in the senate to change the law............

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It's a shame we didn't have one of those presidents in office at the time blacks were integrated into white units.

Whatever happened to the good old days when blacks, women, and gays weren't allowed into god fearing proper military units?

First it was uppity blacks who wanted in, then uppity women. Now it's uppity gays wanting in.

Why don't these people stick to their own kind. This world is going to hell in a hand basket

Ethereal said:

It's obvious that your understanding of the military comes from Hollywood movies, because nothing you have said so far would indicate that you have any idea what you're talking about. Your utter inability to answer any of my questions should be proof of that.

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If you would open your eyes and use your brain you would see I have some understanding of the military.

I would put forth that it is YOU who doesn't know anything about the military. You are the one putting movie stereotypes to play here. You want people to believe that a General sits behind a desk all day, so he doesn't "know the troops". You act as if said General was never any other rank with any other duties, duties that just might cause him to be among the troops.

I answered your question. It was my mistake to assume you could interpret it. If you have to be spoon fed you should warn us of that before we engage you.

braindrain said:

While I don't think this would happen but what if a large percent of our combat arms troops become trouble makers. Should we just kick them out at the cost of making those units nondeployable. Look I am all for getting rid of DADT just not while we have two rather man power intensive wars going on. Now if they want to do it the day after we sart making major draw downs from both theaters than fine. But all that still has nothing ti do with the fact that generals have very little ideas about what your average infantry squad member is thinking. That is just the way it is. To pretend otherwise shows you have absolutly no idea how the military works.

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Good, it'll give us an excuse to get out of these two idiotic wars we're in :mrgreen:

braindrain said:

While I don't think this would happen but what if a large percent of our combat arms troops become trouble makers. Should we just kick them out at the cost of making those units nondeployable. Look I am all for getting rid of DADT just not while we have two rather man power intensive wars going on. Now if they want to do it the day after we sart making major draw downs from both theaters than fine. But all that still has nothing ti do with the fact that generals have very little ideas about what your average infantry squad member is thinking. That is just the way it is. To pretend otherwise shows you have absolutly no idea how the military works.

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It is simply astounding how many here proclaim themselves "military experts". Yet, none of them think that our military, that they know so well, can handle working and living with gays and lesbians, AS IF they haven't already been doing just that! None of these so-called "military experts" think America's best can handle an itty bitty change in their lives, that they can't follow orders.

And the best of all this is they want to wait for world peace to descend on us BEFORE this crushing weight of accepting gays is laid on their shoulders. As if DADT isn't already tearing trained, experienced and mission critical folks from their units. AND those soldiers are torn away without being replaced!

So, Mr. Military Expert # 99, how is it that you don't think that DADT isn't ALREADY hurting our military? :doh

ADK_Forever said:

If you would open your eyes and use your brain you would see I have some understanding of the military.

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And where did you obtain your understanding of the military from? You never served, so I'm not sure how you can claim to know much about it.

I would put forth that it is YOU who doesn't know anything about the military.

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I was in the military for four years, so you're wrong.

ADK_Forever said:

It is simply astounding how many here proclaim themselves "military experts"...

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It's also astounding how someone who has absolutely no experience with the armed forces (YOU) is lecturing two veterans on the military. You must be very deluded and arrogant to think you can scold us...

braindrain said:

While I don't think this would happen but what if a large percent of our combat arms troops become trouble makers. Should we just kick them out at the cost of making those units nondeployable.

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Are you serious? I mean, really? Are you actually advocating NOT disciplining soldiers who break UCMJ rules/laws JUST because they might be needed somewhere? That's a great idea! Let some thugs (sound like a previous President?) extort the entire military and never hold them to the law. OMFG!

If anybody or group breaks the rules/laws they get punished. Don't act as if repealing DADT might change the entire fabric of the military. This kind of crap proves to me that YOU know nothing about how the military works, contrary to your whining.

Look I am all for getting rid of DADT just not while we have two rather man power intensive wars going on. Now if they want to do it the day after we sart making major draw downs from both theaters than fine. But all that still has nothing ti do with the fact that generals have very little ideas about what your average infantry squad member is thinking. That is just the way it is. To pretend otherwise shows you have absolutly no idea how the military works.

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Right, and Generals got to BE Generals by not knowing anything about the troops they lead. :doh

ADK_Forever said:

Are you serious? I mean, really? Are you actually advocating NOT disciplining soldiers who break UCMJ rules/laws JUST because they might be needed somewhere? That's a great idea! Let some thugs (sound like a previous President?) extort the entire military and never hold them to the law. OMFG!

If anybody or group breaks the rules/laws they get punished. Don't act as if repealing DADT might change the entire fabric of the military. This kind of crap proves to me that YOU know nothing about how the military works, contrary to your whining.



Right, and Generals got to BE Generals by not knowing anything about the troops they lead. :doh

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You've been drinking the Code Pink Koolaid for too long...

Ethereal said:

It's also astounding how someone who has absolutely no experience with the armed forces (YOU) is lecturing two veterans on the military. You must be very deluded and arrogant to think you can scold us...

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Well, someone has to do it. You obviously don't have a clue. And some people here may believe you actually know what you're talking about.

ADK_Forever said:

Well, someone has to do it. You obviously don't have a clue. And some people here may believe you know actually know what you're talking about.

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He's a code brown specialist. Bovine battalion.

ADK_Forever said:

Well, someone has to do it. You obviously don't have a clue. And some people here may believe you know actually know what you're talking about.

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You have absolutely no experience with the military, so how are you able to make this claim?

You sound more like a member of Code Pink of something. A Koolaid-guzzling, far-left loon...

I just noticed, you DID serve, which means you're knowingly spreading lies.

You know the difference between officers and enlisted, and you know that officers don't always have the best understanding of lower level enlisted.

You know these things and you still misrepresent things. You are a truly shameful individual.

Ethereal said:

You have absolutely no experience with the military, so how are you able to make this claim?

You sound more like a member of Code Pink of something. A Koolaid-guzzling, far-left loon...

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You're not very observant, are you? Sad. So sad.

ADK_Forever said:

You're not very observant, are you? Sad. So sad.

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The fact that you did serve makes your ignorance even worse; I just thought you were a Code Pink loon, but now I know you're nothing more than a dirty liar.

You're purposely misrepresenting things in order to push your agenda. That's awfully pathetic.

You know that officers and enlisted are very different, and that enlisted service members don't have close relationships with officers. You know these things and you still lie.

There's a reason why officers get a private chow hall on ship and the enlisted have to settle with meager and substandard portions in the main cafeteria. The officers are eating shrimp and sitting in air conditioning while I'm scrapping together a peanut butter and jelly at midnight. They have their own private quarters while I'm stuffed into a coffin rack. They don't know how enlisted men and women feel or live. You know this.

Ethereal said:

I just noticed, you DID serve, which means you're knowingly spreading lies.

You know the difference between officers and enlisted, and you know that officers don't always have the best understanding of lower level enlisted.

You know these things and you still misrepresent things. You are a truly shameful individual.

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Very good. Did I give you too many clues?

To assume that what you take as facts are actually facts would be a reach. You may have some bias towards officers that I do not. My observations have been that officers, especially Generals, know a good deal more than we give them credit for. I never had that "us versus them" problem with officers. However, many goof offs I knew, who were always getting in trouble, shared your opinions.

You do realise that the average age of an infantry squad is I belive 19 or 20 years old right. And most of them are beer drinking, women chasing men who like to fight and raise hell. That is the type of people that are attracted to the infantry. If there is a section of the population that would most likely have a problem with gays it is that one. I never said we need world peace nor did I say we needed to be out of Iraq or Astan. What I said was we need a major draw down and than we can go and repeal DADT the very next day. I think it will be a overall good move for the army. Just one that needs to be done correctly and at the right time.

braindrain said:

What I said was we need a major draw down and than we can go and repeal DADT the very next day. I think it will be a overall good move for the army. Just one that needs to be done correctly and at the right time.

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My point is that DADT is taking soldiers off the field right now. Repealing DADT will leave them to do their job. The only sense that waiting makes is that it is a typical Repub tactic to drag an issue so far out it gets forgotten. That's how we wound up with it in the first place.

ADK_Forever said:

Very good. Did I give you too many clues?

To assume that what you take as facts are actually facts would be a reach. You may have some bias towards officers that I do not. My observations have been that officers, especially Generals, know a good deal more than we give them credit for. I never had that "us versus them" problem with officers. However, many goof offs I knew, who were always getting in trouble, shared your opinions.

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I dont have a problem with officers, my ODA's Cpt. and I are really good friends and another of my and my wifes good family friends is a major. At the same time when officers get up to the rank of full bird and higher they have a lot of other problems to deal with other than what is on the mind of a squad leader. Have you ever been in a unit that has had a visit by a general. How did that go. DId you just sit there share talk about what you were thinking about. Somehow I think not. It is not a us vs them thing it is just that high ranking officers and lower enlisted dont mix to say otherwise is an outright lie. Call me a goof off if you want but somehow I doubt any one who knows me or what I do would say the same thing.

ADK_Forever said:

My point is that DADT is taking soldiers off the field right now. Repealing DADT will leave them to do their job. The only sense that waiting makes is that it is a typical Repub tactic to drag an issue so far out it gets forgotten. That's how we wound up with it in the first place.

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All but one of the soldiers that I have seen that were kicked out for DADT were being kicked out because they wanted out and used it as a way out. Granted it hasnt been very many. The one other guy was a dude worked iin the hospital that pretty much every one knew was gay but the people that worked with him just looked the other way. He was finaly kicked out because he came way way out of the closet if you catch my drift. Which kind of make me think he wanted out to.

braindrain said:

I dont have a problem with officers, my ODA's Cpt. and I are really good friends and another of my and my wifes good family friends is a major. At the same time when officers get up to the rank of full bird and higher they have a lot of other problems to deal with other than what is on the mind of a squad leader. Have you ever been in a unit that has had a visit by a general. How did that go. DId you just sit there share talk about what you were thinking about. Somehow I think not. It is not a us vs them thing it is just that high ranking officers and lower enlisted dont mix to say otherwise is an outright lie. Call me a goof off if you want but somehow I doubt any one who knows me or what I do would say the same thing.

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A lie? Why, because I've experienced something you haven't?

I'll end this by saying this... I guess my experience has been different than yours. We played softball with officers, including birds and stars. We had some very down to earth chats. Many other experiences too.

And like I said earlier, they weren't always wearing stars on their shoulders.

When DADT is rightfully repealed I have all the confidence in the world that our soldiers will be able to handle it.

G'nite.

PS- I didn't call you, or anybody, a goof off.

braindrain said:

All but one of the soldiers that I have seen that were kicked out for DADT were being kicked out because they wanted out and used it as a way out.

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Then you haven't looked at many. Why don't you do some digging? Look for articles on who was or is being kicked out. The vast majority did/do not want out. And the vast majority did not "tell".

ADK_Forever said:

Then you haven't looked at many. Why don't you do some digging? Look for articles on who was or is being kicked out. The vast majority did/do not want out. And the vast majority did not "tell".

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I didn't look at any these are just the ones I have seen from my past unit. I don't doubt that some have been kicked out that wanted to stay in. I also belive that some of those that say they didn't want out actually did.

ADK_Forever said:

Anyone who has ever been in the military knows this is what goes on. They don't refer to it as being "in" and "out" for no reason. These guys are leaders. Leaders in the real sense of the word. They obviously observed enough and decided it's time to bring this aspect of the military in line with civilian life. I give them huge credit for taking this step. This is what a true leader does.

The military will deal with it and move on. Some of you act like they're all a bunch of pansies who can't handle some upheaval in their lives. These Generals and Admirals obviously think our service men and women can handle the change. And so do I.

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The Generals can not change it.It is a law the congress must change.

Ethereal said:

You have absolutely no experience with the military, so how are you able to make this claim?

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When the hell did you serve?

As long as you are going to use your service in the military as the entire basis of your argument, you might as well inform of us when it was. If it was only 10 years ago, then you would have been serving in entirely different military when it comes to this issue. The attitudes are simply not the same.

I've already heard other people who were in the infantry in the Marines who served longer than you say that this is a non issue. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm pretty convinced that no matter how much experience you have, that you can't speak for the whole damn military, nor even the whole damn infantry. You speak for yourself, and perhaps some of the people you served with, but you don't get to speak for everyone currently serving in this military. That is the limit of personal experience, and as long as you use your service as the political tool to provide leverage in this debate, you undermine everything you did for this country. You ask that people be objective, but it is becoming clear that you are pushing your own agenda because your aren't speaking about this objectively, you are making completely unsubstantiated assumptions and then attacking others for not having the same personal experiences that you have had.

Be a good soldier. Say that you want the military to do what will improve military effectiveness and that you expect all soldiers to follow through on whatever policy they decide will best benefit the military in that aim, whether it is the complete repeal of this policy, some compromise, or the complete exclusion of gays. But don't push your assumptions down people's throats simply because you have your political agenda to push.