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Top uniformed officer: Gay ban should be lifted

Ethereal said:
We are in the midst of two wars right now. Our combat units are the best in the world. Why do we need to rock the boat RIGHT NOW? Can't we wait until peace time?

Oh wait...I must be saying this because I'm a homophobic right-winger!!! ZOMG!!!

:2wave:
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I'm all in favor of repealing DADT. Other countries allow gays to serve openly and don't seem to have any problems. That said, I do agree that now isn't the best time. We're engaged in two theaters of war, we don't need to add the complications and stresses of a major change in policy to the pressures of combat.

There is nothing wrong with talking about it or laying some groundwork now, but we should wait until our troops are home safe and sound before we make a big change like this.
 
Ethereal said:
Even if people die, or the effectiveness of our combat units are undermined?
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Do you think there is more of a chance of people dying when a qualified person is on the job or taken off the job?

DADT has done much more to hurt the military than help it.
 
ADK_Forever said:
I think Generals have a better concept of what's going on than you give them credit for. Also they have the big picture in mind.
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As the in big picture yes generals have a excellent idea, but as in daily life in the barracks, training or combat zones, no they don't nor to Co's for the most part. SNCO's and NCO's are the go to guys for information about enlisted behaviors towards one another. Unless something drastic happens or a violation of the UCMJ, upper command usually has no idea. That said, infantry units are the exception and perhaps a few other types of combat units, where contact with ExCo's and CO's is on a daily basis. When I was in, I saw the commanding Generals perhaps 4 or 5 times a year and that usually was in formation, parade, Marine Ball, Veterans day or change of command.
 
CrusaderRabbit08 said:
You drum out the bigots. They're the ones undermining unit cohesiveness.
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And what if our combat units contain a significant amount of these "bigots"? Are you prepared to kick them all out in the middle of two wars?
 
deltabtry said:
As the in big picture yes generals have a excellent idea, but as in daily life in the barracks, training or combat zones, no they don't nor to Co's for the most part. SNCO's and NCO's are the go to guys for information about enlisted behaviors towards one another. Unless something drastic happens or a violation of the UCMJ, upper command usually has no idea. That said, infantry units are the exception and perhaps a few other types of combat units, where contact with ExCo's and CO's is on a daily basis. When I was in, I saw the commanding Generals perhaps 4 or 5 times a year and that usually was in formation, parade, Marine Ball, Veterans day or change of command.
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Yes, but they've been there. If 4 star Generals are coming out supporting getting rid of this piece of **** law that is impressive. And now it will get done.
 
Ethereal said:
And what if our combat units contain a significant amount of these "bigots"? Are you prepared to kick them all out in the middle of two wars?
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Yes, because then we can extricate ourselves from these two worthless wars.
 
Psychoclown said:
I'm all in favor of repealing DADT. Other countries allow gays to serve openly and don't seem to have any problems. That said, I do agree that now isn't the best time. We're engaged in two theaters of war, we don't need to add the complications and stresses of a major change in policy to the pressures of combat.

There is nothing wrong with talking about it or laying some groundwork now, but we should wait until our troops are home safe and sound before we make a big change like this.
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Agreed. I would like to see the problem addressed but now is not a good time to attempt a transition. Some people are so invested in the repeal of DADT that they're willing to overlook the complications it could cause. They probably think this is their last chance with Democrats in control of Washington, so they're intent on ramming it through while they can - consequences be damned.
 
CrusaderRabbit08 said:
Yes, because then we can extricate ourselves from these two worthless wars.
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Goodness-****ing-gracious. Well, you're obviously not looking at this rationally. At least we know what you're agenda is now.
 
Ethereal said:
Goodness-****ing-gracious. Well, you're obviously not looking at this rationally. At least we know what you're agenda is now.
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My agenda:
  • adopt a policy of non-interventionism
  • love one another
  • lol :mrgreen:
 
Ethereal said:
And what if our combat units contain a significant amount of these "bigots"? Are you prepared to kick them all out in the middle of two wars?
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Kicking qualified and trained team members out during 2 wars, with no similar replacements, doesn't sound like such a smart idea either. Ehh?

The thing that the military has going for it that civilians don't is punishment. You don't have all those nifty rights inside that you do outside. If the orders are given, people will follow them... eventually. 4 star Generals leading the way will go a long way in "leading by example".

Any abuse against gay/lesbians will be met with swift and severe punishment. If they don't shape up they will be shipped out! It's that simple. And as has been said, they're already living with it. Just read some of the stories of those kicked out or on the line now.
 
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ADK_Forever said:
Yes, but they've been there. If 4 star Generals are coming out supporting getting rid of this piece of **** law that is impressive. And now it will get done.
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It will take years this is more Obama hype to appease those who voted for him.
 
CrusaderRabbit08 said:
My agenda:
  • adopt a policy of non-interventionism
  • love one another
  • lol :mrgreen:
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That's all well and good but we cannot afford to be "non-interventionist" when it comes to Iraq and Afghanistan. If we leave prematurely in either case the consequences will be severe.
 
ADK_Forever said:
This is bs. It also is not true. :mrgreen: I discovered a guy who I worked very closely with was gay when I sat next to him one day while on Sick Call. Quite an eye opening conversation. He then told me of many others who I was unaware of. NONE of these folks, men and women, ever caused any kind of problem in the slightest. We all acted professionally and allowed each other to have their own space. I always wonder what inner demons people must have that don't allow them to do the same.
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He should have kept his mouth shut as the others had. Once the gates are open, it will change and cause tensions... guaranteed. Look at what tensions it causes in everyday life.

.
 
Ethereal said:
That's all well and good but we cannot afford to be "non-interventionist" when it comes to Iraq and Afghanistan. If we leave prematurely in either case the consequences will be severe.
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Civil war.

So?
 
Good morning Rabbi, I award you the Golden BLZ for the most fragrant one line quip, "Soap on a Rope":rofl Spuders pushed you hard though:)
 
Ethereal said:
Agreed. I would like to see the problem addressed but now is not a good time to attempt a transition. Some people are so invested in the repeal of DADT that they're willing to overlook the complications it could cause. They probably think this is their last chance with Democrats in control of Washington, so they're intent on ramming it through while they can - consequences be damned.
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The thing is, there is no need to ram this through. It's a change that is nearly inevitable, just like same sex civil unions. America is becoming more and more accepting of open homosexuality.

I remember the nation-wide uproar when Clinton wanted to let gays serve openly. People forget that DADT was a step forward for gays when it was enacted. Now, while there is still vocal opposition, its not nearly as big a deal. DADT is on borrowed time. Republicans will probably keep around a bit longer than Democrats, but either way the end is in sight.
 
Ethereal said:
Agreed. I would like to see the problem addressed but now is not a good time to attempt a transition. Some people are so invested in the repeal of DADT that they're willing to overlook the complications it could cause. They probably think this is their last chance with Democrats in control of Washington, so they're intent on ramming it through while they can - consequences be damned.
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This is a perfect time to repeal it! Haven't you heard stories of combat units in which gays have been kicked out leaving their teams short handed. THIS is the time when we really need those people to stay in the jobs they have been trained for. Their team mates lives depend on it!!!
 
ADK_Forever said:
Kicking qualified and trained team members out during 2 wars, with no similar replacements, doesn't sound like such a smart idea either. Ehh?

The thing that the military has going for it that civilians don't is punishment. You don't have all those nifty rights inside that you do outside. If the orders are given, people will follow them... eventually. 4 star Generals leading the way will go a long way in "leading by example".

Any abuse against gay/lesbians will be met with swift and severe punishment. If they don't shape up they will be shipped out! It's that simple. And as has been said, they're already living with it. Just read some of the stories of those kicked out or on the line now.
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As I've said numerous times, I believe it should be left up to the discretion of commanders, which is what Colin Powell wanted to do when he drafted DADT; instead, it was turned into a law, which left commanders with no legal latitude in the enforcement of DADT.
 
Ethereal said:
As I've said numerous times, I believe it should be left up to the discretion of commanders, which is what Colin Powell wanted to do when he drafted DADT; instead, it was turned into a law, which left commanders with no legal latitude in the enforcement of DADT.
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A very reasonable stopgap measure until it is repealed.
 
ADK_Forever said:
This is a perfect time to repeal it! Haven't you heard stories of combat units in which gays have been kicked out leaving their teams short handed. THIS is the time when we really need those people to stay in the jobs they have been trained for. Their team mates lives depend on it!!!
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I am still waiting for you to explain this


DADT has done much more to hurt the military than help it.
 
B L Zeebub said:
Good morning Rabbi, I award you the Golden BLZ for the most fragrant one line quip, "Soap on a Rope":rofl Spuders pushed you hard though:)
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Hey dude ..it avoids hard being pushed in ;)
 
Psychoclown said:
The thing is, there is no need to ram this through. It's a change that is nearly inevitable, just like same sex civil unions. America is becoming more and more accepting of open homosexuality.

I remember the nation-wide uproar when Clinton wanted to let gays serve openly. People forget that DADT was a step forward for gays when it was enacted. Now, while there is still vocal opposition, its not nearly as big a deal. DADT is on borrowed time. Republicans will probably keep around a bit longer than Democrats, but either way the end is in sight.
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We should only do it after a rigorous and comprehensive analysis determines that it can be done without negatively effecting operational efficiency.

Go watch the Colin Powell video that American posted earlier in the thread and you'll hear the best argument in favor of my position.
 
CrusaderRabbit08 said:
Like I said before, not much honor in the military. How pathetic is that?
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You don't have what it takes to clean the boots of those sticking their necks out to defend and protect pathetic ********* like you.

.
 
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