And you know, this may come from my part of being the god father of a child with Downs Syndrome (and mind you, in all this, I actually don't care about people calling others retarded and have said Palin was over reacting here), but I don't see "Oh, its just a colloquialism now, its not a slur any longer" as a way to excuse it.
For example I'll even harken to my ever favorite show on TV, South Park. "Gay" or even "Faggot" often now a days, when used, is used less as a means of saying "You're a homosexual!" or thinking homosexual, and more typically just meaning "you're an ass" in regards to the later or "that's bad" in terms of the former, or at worse perhaps effeminate.
Do some still use it as a means of slurring homosexual people, or comparing someone to a homosexual (of which they think is "bad"?). Sure. But many people simply use is a a colloquialism now. You'll find younger kids in their teens and even 20's go "Wow that's really gay" not because "Wow that's really like a homosexual" or "Wow, that's really bad like homosexuals are bad" but simply because "Gay" has became slang now.
If someone is cut off by a guy in a car and goes "Damnit, what a faggot" is he somehow implying that homosexual people are bad drivers? Are they known to cut people off? Is there something about enjoying another man that makes one prone to cutting people off? Or is it simply a derogative term that has became derogatory almost in its own right, not because its necessarily the purpose of the person using it to specifically reference a homosexual.
Does that means they're somehow no longer slurs, when its became so colloquial to use them now that many people who use them are not in any way, shape, or form intending to use it as a disparaging way towards homosexuals?
I don't think most people who say that the outcome of a football game that ended on a bad call was a "Gay call" are thinking about homosexual people when they say it, but does that somehow make it less of a slur?
Actually, I did not know about your god child, I managed to miss that. I am sure the child is better off for having you as a godfather.
Yes, I think it makes it less of a slur on gay people. You know me and my attitudes on gays and gay issues. I also don't think we should take everything so personally. If some one complains about a "gay call", it's not to my mind inherently offensive to gays. I can choose to take it that way, but I think then the problem is with me if you follow what I mean.
Is it though? Do you somehow know that whenever anyone that's not black uses the term nigger they are automatically meaning it as a complete and utter racial slur? That they could not say be a younger kid who happens to agree with say, the Chris Rock "love black people, hate niggers" rant, and are saying it in reference to a very specific type of person...be they black, white (hated the term wigger), etc...rather than a blanket statement about black people.
Obviously I do not know that, but that is in essence my point in a way, which is intent does matter. The word "niggar" is for me a bad one, and I do take it poorly, but at least I admit it is my failing.
And more to the point...
If this person stated it without the intent of meaning it as a negative towards all black people, but a particular stereotypical subset whose actions and attitudes don't necessarily require them to only be black, does that somehow make it not a slur?
Yes, it makes it less of a racial slur, and potentially not a slur at all in use. Context matters.
Honestly, I would see "Gay" or "Faggot" as a closer one than nigger. Nigger simply was an easy one to use, not because of the Godwin effect, but because I knew of a good satirical piece using it to give an example right off. It was used, initially by me, simply to show that in society even a slur that is as offensive as Nigger, when used in satire, can be laughed at and not viewed as immediately offensive.
It was only when Jack decided to say that they are not comparable at all, implying that retarded is somehow not a slur, that it began being discussed regarding the "levels" of a slur.
It wasn't brought up to exaggerate a point, but more due to the fact that Chris Rock's sketch is perhaps the most famous satirical use of a slur outside of something by Carlos Mencia and I don't want to touch anything from Carlos Mencia
Understood, and I disagree with jackalope in her saying that they are not comparable. I just tend to see the use of the word "niggar" as being kinda the nuclear option, it escalates the discussion to the max level. However, to continue to make my point, as your use of the example shows, context is the key. I don't like the word, I will always find that it makes me queasy in any discussion, but I am responsible for my own emotional reactions.
Ha! Teaches me for responding then reading. Yep, I agree with you here. And as I stated earlier on in this thread, I don't really have an issue with the use of it. I think Rham should've known better given his position, but I don't think he needs to be fired or anything....
But...lets even say gay....
If someone seriously used Gay as an insult and the gay community came out and some spokesman for it had a hissy fit about it I would happily come out and say that I can kind of respect why it offends them, but they're over reacting...much like I feel with Palin.
If someone then did a PARODY of it, performed satire....even if it was tasteless and tactless and crude....where they called a bunch of things gay and that same organization didn't say anything about it and right wingers were complaining about the hypocricy, I'd be making the same argument then.
You can not compare someone saying something in a way meant to be insulting, even if the intent of them wasn't even thinking of it as a slur, and someone who is performing SATIRE or doing a PARODY. They are not on the same level of wrongness, nor is it reasonable to expect someone to act exactly the same towards both offenses.
In reality, my issue in this thread is not necessarily with what Rham Emanuel said. I think its a bit tactless and insensitive, and a bit stupid for a high ranking official to be saying anywhere but the most private of places, but I don't take offense to it. My issue is with people trying to imply that Palin is somehow this giant hypocrite for being offended at and upset about Rham Emanuel's use of the term to insult but that she's not reacting the same way toward Rush Limbaugh's use of the term in satire and parody.
Great minds come together sometimes...
In your scenario, I would understand why they did not like the use of the word "gay", but if it was not being used to insult gays, I would think they where being foolish and overly PC.
I will give you Rush's use, though I bet I could find examples of him using it before this whole situation arose. Not positive, but I bet a could. Further, my objection to Palin's reaction is that it strikes me as trying to score cheap political points by selectively complaining about one person's use of a word that really is not unacceptable in a private meeting. I doubt there are many in Washington who have not called something or some one "retarded". My other objection is that she complained about people being PC, and then was PC.
I truly hate ALL Palin threads. That being said, two things. Firstly, all the attacks and accusations of trolling need to stop. Secondly, Reverend and jackalope, specifically. The two of you need to stop going after each other in every post. If you can't play nice, stop playing.