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Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
That is not necessarily true. It all depends on the people in question. The ability to work with people of different faiths, genders and sexual orientation should be a valid criteria on which to base the hiring process. If someone is obviously not capable of working in such an environment, they should not be hired. Their religion, gender or sexual orientation does not come into play here. Their flexibility as employees does.
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So it would be OK to discriminate under some circumstances then?

Arcana XV said:
It was just an example. It does have everything to do with this issue seeing as the law, as I understand it, is trying to outlaw employer discrimination based on race, religion, gender and sexual orientation. When religious institutions act as secular employers, they absolutely should be subject to this law.
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As private organizations no they should not. Forcing a church to hire gays etc is flying in the face of the religion, and discriminatory itself.

Arcana XV said:
No one is forcing them to hire anyone, BG. The law doesn't require them to hire gay Wiccan ex Muslims or else. The law simply states that they can't use someone's race, religion, gender or sexual orientation as a valid reason to refuse employment. Your anti-discrimination laws are exactly the same, except for the weird exception you grant some employers to openly discriminate against certain potential employees. I just can't wrap my head around the concept that a Catholic hospital can openly discriminate against gay doctors, but a regular hospital can't do the same without risking a lawsuit.
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If you could understand the concept of sin and similar concepts in other religions it would be easier. The church cannot condone or support sin. Our government will not force a religion to do this due to the separation of church and state. By forcing them to hire say a gay doctor you are making the institution say it is OK, when it is not.

The Boy Scouts are another example. Private org, hire who they want.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Blackdog said:
So it would be OK to discriminate under some circumstances then?
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It's perfectly expected to refuse to hire someone who is obviously not qualified for the job and who doesn't possess the necessarily personality traits to handle a multicultural environment. It's not okay to refuse employment based solely on race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

As private organizations no they should not. Forcing a church to hire gays etc is flying in the face of the religion, and discriminatory itself.
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No one is being forced to hire anyone. They're just being told that sexual orientation alone is not a valid reason to refuse someone employment when they are otherwise perfectly qualified for the job.

If you could understand the concept of sin and similar concepts in other religions it would be easier. The church cannot condone or support sin. Our government will not force a religion to do this due to the separation of church and state. By forcing them to hire say a gay doctor you are making the institution say it is OK, when it is not.

The Boy Scouts are another example. Private org, hire who they want.
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I understand the concept of sin just fine. I grew up Catholic. As such, I was told to hate the sin and love the sinner. But, like everything else, they were just meaningless, empty words. As the reaction of the Pope himself proves, when it comes to gays, the new motto seems to be "hate the sin, hate the sinner, ostracize him/her". Too bad they don't feel the same about the bad apples in their midst. If they did, at least I could commend their consistency.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:
Discrimination as a whole is unacceptable.
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Yes, always.

Hiring interviews are totally unacceptable. All employers should be required, by law, to accept all applications and hire, on the basis of pulling the next application out of the drawer, everyone who applies when openings come up, without making the least bit of effort to determine who and what the person is or his/her/it's suitability for the job in question.

Discrimination is soooo evil!
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
Heh.

Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure it wouldn't create many more problems than it would solve, though.
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Here's a hint:

It's not the government's problem.

If an employer wants to hire inferior talent for reasons not related to job performance, that's his problem, and it's his money.

I know the story is about some stupid English nanny-state law, but the US has similar BS laws. What the United States has, though, is the First Amendment. It guarantees "freedom of association". By default, it also means "freedom from association", ie, you don't have to let someone into your club if you don't want him/her/it. For whatever reason.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
It's perfectly expected to refuse to hire someone who is obviously not qualified for the job and who doesn't possess the necessarily personality traits to handle a multicultural environment. It's not okay to refuse employment based solely on race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.
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Sure it is, if it's your business.

If it's not your business, then it's none of your business anyway.


Arcana XV said:
No one is being forced to hire anyone. They're just being told that sexual orientation alone is not a valid reason to refuse someone employment when they are otherwise perfectly qualified for the job.
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It's a perfectly valid reason. In a free society, employers are free to hire whom they want for whatever reason, and free to not hire whoever they don't want, for no reason at all, and the most interesting part about living in a free society is that the prospective employer doesn't have to justify his actions to anyone at any time.

Arcana XV said:
I understand the concept of sin just fine.
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It's a sin to try to run someone else's life. Live your own, instead.

Arcana XV said:
I grew up Catholic. As such, I was told to hate the sin and love the sinner. But, like everything else, they were just meaningless, empty words. As the reaction of the Pope himself proves, when it comes to gays, the new motto seems to be "hate the sin, hate the sinner, ostracize him/her". Too bad they don't feel the same about the bad apples in their midst. If they did, at least I could commend their consistency.
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That's the Pope's problem, not yours.

When you own your own globe-spanning religious corporation, you should have the freedom to not hire whoever you don't want, too.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Sure it is, if it's your business.

If it's not your business, then it's none of your business anyway.




It's a perfectly valid reason. In a free society, employers are free to hire whom they want for whatever reason, and free to not hire whoever they don't want, for no reason at all, and the most interesting part about living in a free society is that the prospective employer doesn't have to justify his actions to anyone at any time.
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Well, that's all pretty much moot, because we don't live in that kind of world. Your utopia does not exist, nor do I think it ever will. So let's stick to the real world, yeah?
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
Well, that's all pretty much moot, because we don't live in that kind of world. Your utopia does not exist, nor do I think it ever will. So let's stick to the real world, yeah?
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Yes, let's stick to the real world in which damn fools can read 1984 and Animal Farm and Brave New World and then vote that their government just has to have to power to do them favors all over the place by stomping on the freedoms of others.

That's the world you want, and that's the world you're getting.

You happy with it?
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:
This the same Pope who heads an organisation which Henry the 8th removed from the country? He ought to be quiet and stay out of it. :/

The MPs are elected, he is not. This has nothing to do with religious freedom but the wish to have the right to discriminate against Gay people.
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Actually the 'Pope' is an elected office, he is elected by a conclave of his Peers, they being the Cardinals of this disgusting Religion.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

American said:
This is just trolling since obviously the sexual abuse is NOT done in the name of Christianity.
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So far as the children involved understand it at the time they are being buggered by their (Holy) Roman Catholic church priests, it is being performed on them with the full approval of the '(Holy) Roman Catholic Church'.
 
jujuman13 said:
Link
BBC News - Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

This from someone whose minions have sexually assaulted hundreds if not thousands of young children in their care.
Naturally all in the name of some archaic mumbo jumbo religion.
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Oh yea, I forgot, the Pope is no longer allowed to support his religion anymore because some sickos in the Church hurt children. I guess that means every Muslim on the planet should just STFU about anything because their "brothers" flew some planes into the World Trade Centers.

You're just a bigot, and your government is quickly becoming the most authoritarian in Western civilization. Shame on you.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Laila said:
Discrimination as a whole is unacceptable.
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Have you ever refused to go on a date with someone? Have you ever avoided certain areas in London? Do you have a specific group of people you associate with, or do you become friends with every single person you meet?
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Yes, let's stick to the real world in which damn fools can read 1984 and Animal Farm and Brave New World and then vote that their government just has to have to power to do them favors all over the place by stomping on the freedoms of others.

That's the world you want, and that's the world you're getting.

You happy with it?
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Could be worse.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
As long as religious institutions are not forced to change their core fundamental doctrine, I see no problem with the UK Equality law. Since the law does not force the hiring of gay priests, female imams or rabbis and such, there is no issue here.

I do have to wonder what the Pope's problem is here. This affects only the secular jobs in connection with the church, such as accountants, secretaries, cleaning staff etc.. Why in the world would the church refuse to employ gays in these postions? Whatever happened to hate the sin, love the sinner? :confused: I guess that was just one more bull**** statement rammed down my throat during Catechism. :roll:

I think the Pope's reaction is utterly ridiculous and shamefully un-Catholic.
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There is no such thing as a "secular job" within the Catholic Church, just like there is no such thing as a secular job in a Muslim mosque. Every employee is a caretaker of the religious community, whether they're a Priest or an administrator. It's not as simple as this job is theological and this job is secular.

Of course, this ignores the fact that free individuals and associations should be able to hire and fire whoever they want for whatever reason they want, but I wouldn't expect that kind of logic to come out of Britain.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
If they're going to discriminate, they can't force me to sanction it with my tax dollars.
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They aren't forcing you to do anything. The government is making you subsidize their practices. If you don't like it, take it up with the government.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

jujuman13 said:
Actually the 'Pope' is an elected office, he is elected by a conclave of his Peers, they being the Cardinals of this disgusting Religion.
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As a head of state, he is interfering in the business of another state. His Nazi past does not help him in imposing his unwanted views on others.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ethereal said:
There is no such thing as a "secular job" within the Catholic Church, just like there is no such thing as a secular job in a Muslim mosque. Every employee is a caretaker of the religious community, whether they're a Priest or an administrator. It's not as simple as this job is theological and this job is secular.

Of course, this ignores the fact that free individuals and associations should be able to hire and fire whoever they want for whatever reason they want, but I wouldn't expect that kind of logic to come out of Britain.
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It's very simple. Everyone who's not clergy holds a secular position. They're not even necessarily religious either. Just people who need a job. :shrug:
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
It's very simple. Everyone who's not clergy holds a secular position. They're not even necessarily religious either. Just people who need a job. :shrug:
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Like I said, there is no such thing as a "secular position" in the Catholic Church. Administrators are expected to be as much a part of the religious community as the Priests.

It's not like the Catholic community has separate buildings for theological purposes and secular purposes. They're ALL part of the Church; they're ALL theological. You cannot make a distinction between the two in the eyes of a Catholic; they all serve the same theological end.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Manc Skipper said:
As a head of state, he is interfering in the business of another state. His Nazi past does not help him in imposing his unwanted views on others.
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He was FORCED to join the Hitler Youth, just like every other German boy his age. Maybe if you weren't such an irrational bigot you would understand the difference...
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
It's getting worse.

Now we have governments interfering in the hiring policies of private companies.
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We've had that for a long time. I see it as governments trying to ensure that all citizens are treated equally. I see the protection of minorities as one of the government's responsibilities. Besides, there are always ways to circumvent these feel-good laws. It's extremely hard to prove you're the victim of this sort of discrimination. Employers are not stupid enough to tell you the truth. This law won't make much of a difference in practice. :lol:
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ethereal said:
Like I said, there is no such thing as a "secular position" in the Catholic Church. Administrators are expected to be as much a part of the religious community as the Priests.

It's not like the Catholic community has separate buildings for theological purposes and secular purposes. They're ALL part of the Church; they're ALL theological. You cannot make a distinction between the two in the eyes of a Catholic; they all serve the same theological end.
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I disagree. A Catholic hospital has a different purpose than theology. The doctors, nurses, orderlies, security personnel, cleaning staff etc.. are not there for theological purposes.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
I disagree. A Catholic hospital has a different purpose than theology. The doctors, nurses, orderlies, security personnel, cleaning staff etc.. are not there for theological purposes.
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Okay, this is a valid point, but the fact remains, on a communal level, there is no such thing as a secular position.

I was a Catholic for a long while, and I know there is no religious distinction between the administrative buildings and the actual Church itself. In fact, the "administrative wing" of many Catholic communities is at the Priest's home. It usually serves the duel purpose of housing the clergy and managing the Church's finances.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
I disagree. A Catholic hospital has a different purpose than theology. The doctors, nurses, orderlies, security personnel, cleaning staff etc.. are not there for theological purposes.
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It may be, but it doesn't mean the Church can't require them to be Catholic.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
Do they, though? I don't think it's a requirement.
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No idea. If they don't, can't they still discriminate? Anyone but gays, for instance.
 
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