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Thread: Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Agreed ..and my rights are being violated when my tax dollars are being used to subsidize organizations that discriminate.
    And your beef is with the government whom has spent your money in ways it wasn't authorized to do. But you cannot go after the individuals, their rights are still above all else. Just because a Church takes money doesn't mean that the practitioners must now be restricted. Get rid of the subsidy if you want, but you cannot infringe upon the right to practice and express religion nor upon assembly. That's what it means to acknowledge the rights of the individual as supreme.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What is not acceptable in Europe is to openly state, we will only accept applications from White, Christian, non gay people for the job of washing the Church toilet and that is what the Church has done.
    I think that is bull****. If they are only going to hire non-gay guys, why not be able to announce that fact? Europe is too PC. Talk about a toilet.

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And your beef is with the government whom has spent your money in ways it wasn't authorized to do. But you cannot go after the individuals, their rights are still above all else. Just because a Church takes money doesn't mean that the practitioners must now be restricted. Get rid of the subsidy if you want, but you cannot infringe upon the right to practice and express religion nor upon assembly. That's what it means to acknowledge the rights of the individual as supreme.
    And government can place restrictions upon the use of said money if it so chooses, since no religious group is forced to take the money. If they feel these restrictions violate their principles, they can walk away from the money.

    Restrictions for accepting tax dollars on a voluntary basis are not a violation of any one's rights, since the group is free to not accept the proposal.

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I think that is bull****. If they are only going to hire non-gay guys, why not be able to announce that fact? Europe is too PC. Talk about a toilet.
    I agree, they shouldn'e be forced to hire someone who engages in what their religion considers a deviant, sinful life style.......

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    And government can place restrictions upon the use of said money if it so chooses, since no religious group is forced to take the money.
    Absolutely not. The government must be forbidden from infringing upon the rights and liberties of the individual without due process of law.

    You don't seem to actually understand the premise that the rights of the individual are to reign above all else; the very corner stone of libertarian political philosophy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Absolutely not. The government must be forbidden from infringing upon the rights and liberties of the individual without due process of law.

    You don't seem to actually understand the premise that the rights of the individual are to reign above all else; the very corner stone of libertarian political philosophy.
    Where's the violation of rights when the acceptance of the money is voluntary?

    What about the violation of my rights in being forced to support religious groups that discriminate?

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Yes, but that's not really what I had in mind. Actually, affirmative action is a form of reverse discrimination which I don't necessarily think is useful anymore in this day and age.

    What I meant was that I was under the impression that discrimination based on gender, race and religion was illegal in the US.
    Its either discrimination or its not discrimination.So yes Affirmative actions is discrimination since it does discriminate.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Where's the violation of rights when the acceptance of the money is voluntary?
    When the government acts to deny the free practice and expression of religion, there is your violation of rights. Another key tenet of libertarianism, the government is restricted; not the People. It's an important concept, we do not go after the rights and liberties of the People; but seek to constrain and control government to its proper size.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    What about the violation of my rights in being forced to support religious groups that discriminate?
    Take it up with the government as they are the ones spending the money. You cannot take it out on the individuals because you feel the government is acting inappropriately.

    This is the same damned thing the federal government does with the drinking age in our country; and it's just as wrong. Just because the government takes our money and redistributes it doesn't mean that A) That redistribution is authorized under the constitution B) that the government can enact restrictions upon the People for accepting the money (it was ours to begin with, not the government's) C) that the government is then, without due process of law, authorized to and excused from infringing upon the rights and liberties of the individual.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    I agree, they shouldn'e be forced to hire someone who engages in what their religion considers a deviant, sinful life style.......
    No, the right answer is the "they shouldn't be forced to hire someone". If they do it is up to them who they want to hire and if they want to be discriminatory that is their prerogative.

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    Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    The Israeli equality laws are slightly less socialistic than the British equality laws, and tend more towards the values of liberalism.

    Yet you are generally correct, and that certainly doesn't mean that two wrongs make a right.
    I don't think fighting discrimination in all its forms is wrong. Not in Israel, not in the UK nor anywhere else. I would speak out against a law that would force Catholic Churches or Orthodox Synagogues to accept women clergy, because that goes against their fundamental religious dogma, but asking them to follow the law of the land when they act as secular employers is only logical. A gay accountant is not going to affect the core values of a religion and might very well be the best person for the job. One might argue that giving such a person employment is a tacit approval of their lifestyle, but that is a bit a of stretch in my opinion. No one knows what people actually do behind closed doors and the nice looking straight accountant may be a total pervert for all we know.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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