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Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Ikari said:
Absolutely not. The government must be forbidden from infringing upon the rights and liberties of the individual without due process of law.

You don't seem to actually understand the premise that the rights of the individual are to reign above all else; the very corner stone of libertarian political philosophy.
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Where's the violation of rights when the acceptance of the money is voluntary?

What about the violation of my rights in being forced to support religious groups that discriminate?
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
Yes, but that's not really what I had in mind. Actually, affirmative action is a form of reverse discrimination which I don't necessarily think is useful anymore in this day and age.

What I meant was that I was under the impression that discrimination based on gender, race and religion was illegal in the US.
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Its either discrimination or its not discrimination.So yes Affirmative actions is discrimination since it does discriminate.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
Where's the violation of rights when the acceptance of the money is voluntary?
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When the government acts to deny the free practice and expression of religion, there is your violation of rights. Another key tenet of libertarianism, the government is restricted; not the People. It's an important concept, we do not go after the rights and liberties of the People; but seek to constrain and control government to its proper size.

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
What about the violation of my rights in being forced to support religious groups that discriminate?
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Take it up with the government as they are the ones spending the money. You cannot take it out on the individuals because you feel the government is acting inappropriately.

This is the same damned thing the federal government does with the drinking age in our country; and it's just as wrong. Just because the government takes our money and redistributes it doesn't mean that A) That redistribution is authorized under the constitution B) that the government can enact restrictions upon the People for accepting the money (it was ours to begin with, not the government's) C) that the government is then, without due process of law, authorized to and excused from infringing upon the rights and liberties of the individual.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Partisan said:
I agree, they shouldn'e be forced to hire someone who engages in what their religion considers a deviant, sinful life style.......;)
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No, the right answer is the "they shouldn't be forced to hire someone". If they do it is up to them who they want to hire and if they want to be discriminatory that is their prerogative.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Apocalypse said:
The Israeli equality laws are slightly less socialistic than the British equality laws, and tend more towards the values of liberalism.

Yet you are generally correct, and that certainly doesn't mean that two wrongs make a right.
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I don't think fighting discrimination in all its forms is wrong. Not in Israel, not in the UK nor anywhere else. I would speak out against a law that would force Catholic Churches or Orthodox Synagogues to accept women clergy, because that goes against their fundamental religious dogma, but asking them to follow the law of the land when they act as secular employers is only logical. A gay accountant is not going to affect the core values of a religion and might very well be the best person for the job. One might argue that giving such a person employment is a tacit approval of their lifestyle, but that is a bit a of stretch in my opinion. No one knows what people actually do behind closed doors and the nice looking straight accountant may be a total pervert for all we know.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Jerry said:
Having read the article, I couldn't see what this is all about. What is the law and what is that law doing?
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[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Bill]Equality Bill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The primary purpose of the Bill is to codify the complicated and evolving array of Acts and Regulations, which form the basis of anti-discrimination law in the United Kingdom. This is, primarily, the Equal Pay Act 1970, the Race Relations Act 1976, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and three Statutory Instruments protecting discrimination in employment on grounds of religion or belief, sexual orientation and age. This legislation has the same goals as the US Civil Rights Act 1964 and four major EU Equal Treatment Directives.[1] It requires equal treatment in access to employment as well as private and public services, regardless of gender, race, disability, sexual orientation, belief and age. In the case of gender, there are special protections for pregnant women. In the case of disability, employers and service providers are under a duty to make reasonable adjustments to their workplaces to accommodate people with handicaps. In this regard, the Equality Bill will not change the law.
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Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
I don't think fighting discrimination in all its forms is wrong. Not in Israel, not in the UK nor anywhere else. I would speak out against a law that would force Catholic Churches or Orthodox Synagogues to accept women clergy, because that goes against their fundamental religious dogma, but asking them to follow the law of the land when they act as secular employers is only logical. A gay accountant is not going to affect the core values of a religion and might very well be the best person for the job. One might argue that giving such a person employment is a tacit approval of their lifestyle, but that is a bit a of stretch in my opinion. No one knows what people actually do behind closed doors and the nice looking straight accountant may be a total pervert for all we know.
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I'm all for fighting discrimination on every and each field in society, that is not why I oppose the law and that is not what I find to be wrong with it.

To make myself clear, what's bothering me about such laws is the socialistic values that they promote.
For example, in the British equality bill we have a clause that forces company owners to publish the disparities of pay between males and females within their organizations, that then goes on to call public bodies to prefer companies that have a smaller disparity between males and females in their organization, over the companies that hold larger disparities.

This is, I believe, a pure socialistic act, that causes many females to be placed at positions that they are not suited for - and absolutely not merely because they are females - positions that could have been taken by a more suitable person, that might happen to be a male.

If one is fighting discrimination, he should promote the rights of the individual, and not bluntly the equality of society as a whole.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
You have no anti-discrimination laws in the US? Since when?
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We have no law that forces religious hospitals or schools to hire anyone other than who they want.

Of course you knew this and ignored the meat of my post. :roll:
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
Agreed ..and my rights are being violated when my tax dollars are being used to subsidize organizations that discriminate.
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Since when did you have a right to tell the government what they can spend taxes on? I mean in all seriousness, except for voting you have no right at all.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Apocalypse said:
I'm all for fighting discrimination on every and each field in society, that is not why I oppose the law and that is not what I find to be wrong with it.

To make myself clear, what's bothering me about such laws is the socialistic values that they promote.
For example, in the British equality bill we have a clause that forces company owners to publish the disparities of pay between males and females within their organizations, that then goes on to call public bodies to prefer companies that have a smaller disparity between males and females in their organization, over the companies that hold larger disparities.

This is, I believe, a pure socialistic act, that causes many females to be placed at positions that they are not suited for - and absolutely not merely because they are females - positions that could have been taken by a more suitable person, that might happen to be a male.

If one is fighting discrimination, he should promote the rights of the individual, and not bluntly the equality of society as a whole.
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I'm not sure I understand what exactly you're objecting to. Equal pay for equal work is not socialistic in nature. Why should somebody's gender determine their salary, everything else being equal? What would really be socialistic and utterly non-sensical too, would be to pay everyone the same salary regardless of qualifications. But that's not what this law is about.

This is not about some sort of affirmative action, it's about equality in the eyes of the law.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Blackdog said:
We have no law that forces religious hospitals or schools to hire anyone other than who they want.

Of course you knew this and ignored the meat of my post. :roll:
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Why do these particular employers get afforded the right to openly discriminate? Either the law applies to all employers or it doesn't. These are secular jobs we're talking about. Why should a religious hospital be allowed to discriminate against gays, but a regular hospital is not allowed to discriminate against blacks?

It doesn't make much sense, is all I'm saying. But hey, it's your country, if you're ok with the disparity... :shrug:
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
Why do these particular employers get afforded the right to openly discriminate? Either the law applies to all employers or it doesn't. These are secular jobs we're talking about. Why should a religious hospital be allowed to discriminate against gays, but a regular hospital is not allowed to discriminate against blacks?
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What kind of work atmosphere do you create when you mix a Catholic, atheist and Muslim in the same work area? A hostile work environment. This does not work very well. Look at the divisive arguments here about religion, not lets throw that in the work place.

Please, why do people always have to bring race into it? Race is not religion and has nothing to do with this issue at all. A person has no choice in what race they are. People most certainly pick the religion they are.

Arcana XV said:
It doesn't make much sense, is all I'm saying. But hey, it's your country, if you're ok with the disparity... :shrug:
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What does not make sense is why you think it would be OK for a Catholic organization to be forced to hire a Wikkan or Muslim??? And visa versa.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
Exactly! If they're qualified, you can't reject them because you don't like their religion or sexual orientation. That part is none of your business and if you don't like it, then you have to give up your tax subsidies.
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But religions are not classified as businesses.
 
It's all nonsense.

The government has NO business forcing any company, secular or religious (and an organized religion is just a business, run by con men) who they must hire and who they must serve. The only natural limit to this would be hospitals, who shouldn't be allowed to discriminate when the man at the door is exsanguinating on the steps.

The Catholic Church should not be required to hire fairies it doesn't want.

Nor should any religion be required to hire anyone male or female, that it doesn't want to - with no reasons given.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
Why do these particular employers get afforded the right to openly discriminate? Either the law applies to all employers or it doesn't.
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Easy enough.

Get the government out of the workplace.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Blackdog said:
What kind of work atmosphere do you create when you mix a Catholic, atheist and Muslim in the same work area? A hostile work environment.
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And yet most institutions will hire any of them, or all of them with no problem. Why should a, for example, catholic hospital be above the same laws as every other employer?
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Arcana XV said:
I'm not sure I understand what exactly you're objecting to. Equal pay for equal work is not socialistic in nature. Why should somebody's gender determine their salary, everything else being equal? What would really be socialistic and utterly non-sensical too, would be to pay everyone the same salary regardless of qualifications. But that's not what this law is about.

This is not about some sort of affirmative action, it's about equality in the eyes of the law.
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I wasn't clear enough, it seems.
It is not a "same gender same rank = same salary" law, but rather a "same gender = same salary" law, disregarding the ranks.

The disparities between the female workers and male workers salaries was created mainly because of the difference between the percentage of high positioned males and the percentage of high positioned females in the organizations, and one cannot simply force the company to balance that by promoting/hiring unsuitable females to high ranked positions in the company, or to simply raise the salary of the low-ranking female workers over that of the low-ranking male workers - that is blind social equality and that is what socialism is about.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Redress said:
And yet most institutions will hire any of them, or all of them with no problem. Why should a, for example, catholic hospital be above the same laws as every other employer?
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Why should the employer be subject to govermental whim on who he hires?

It's not the government's business, it's his business.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Apocalypse said:
It is not a "same gender same rank = same salary" law, but rather a "same gender = same salary" law, disregarding the ranks.
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Again, what business is it of the government's?

If an employee feels they're underpaid, they have every freedom to find a new job.

That's how it works in free societies.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Redress said:
And yet most institutions will hire any of them, or all of them with no problem. Why should a, for example, catholic hospital be above the same laws as every other employer?
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Because they are private organizations and not for profit organizations.

Pretty simple.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

CrusaderRabbit08 said:
This is none of the Pope's business. He's not a British citizen, so he needs to butt out.
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The Catholic Church has business branches open all over England, so as CEO of the Catholic Church, the Pope has every reason to comment and persuade.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Blackdog said:
What kind of work atmosphere do you create when you mix a Catholic, atheist and Muslim in the same work area? A hostile work environment. This does not work very well. Look at the divisive arguments here about religion, not lets throw that in the work place.
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That is not necessarily true. It all depends on the people in question. The ability to work with people of different faiths, genders and sexual orientation should be a valid criteria on which to base the hiring process. If someone is obviously not capable of working in such an environment, they should not be hired. Their religion, gender or sexual orientation does not come into play here. Their flexibility as employees does.

Please, why do people always have to bring race into it? Race is not religion and has nothing to do with this issue at all. A person has no choice in what race they are. People most certainly pick the religion they are.
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It was just an example. It does have everything to do with this issue seeing as the law, as I understand it, is trying to outlaw employer discrimination based on race, religion, gender and sexual orientation. When religious institutions act as secular employers, they absolutely should be subject to this law.

What does not make sense is why you think it would be OK for a Catholic organization to be forced to hire a Wikkan or Muslim??? And visa versa.
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No one is forcing them to hire anyone, BG. The law doesn't require them to hire gay Wiccan ex Muslims or else. The law simply states that they can't use someone's race, religion, gender or sexual orientation as a valid reason to refuse employment. Your anti-discrimination laws are exactly the same, except for the weird exception you grant some employers to openly discriminate against certain potential employees. I just can't wrap my head around the concept that a Catholic hospital can openly discriminate against gay doctors, but a regular hospital can't do the same without risking a lawsuit.
 
Re: Pope launches attack on UK equality law

Apocalypse said:
I wasn't clear enough, it seems.
It is not a "same gender same rank = same salary" law, but rather a "same gender = same salary" law, disregarding the ranks.

The disparities between the female workers and male workers salaries was created mainly because of the difference between the percentage of high positioned males and the percentage of high positioned females in the organizations, and one cannot simply force the company to balance that by promoting/hiring unsuitable females to high ranked positions in the company, or to simply raise the salary of the low-ranking female workers over that of the low-ranking male workers - that is blind social equality and that is what socialism is about.
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Ok, I can agree with all that, but is this really what this Equality law is about? Is this law trying to force UK companies to pay women higher salaries than their rank deserves?

I don't see where it states that.
 
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